News & Discussion: Trams

Threads relating to transport, water, etc. within the CBD and Metropolitan area.
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claybro
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Re: News & Discussion: Trams

#3436 Post by claybro » Wed Aug 29, 2018 9:58 am

Nathan wrote:
Wed Aug 29, 2018 9:43 am
Mpol03 wrote:
Wed Aug 29, 2018 8:38 am
One wonders... what if this mess has been some what encouraged by the current state government, dissuade people from any further team extensions?
It seems like a silly conspiracy theory, but when you watch two guys take an entire month to tile a single platform, you have to wonder.
The proof of this may be when a private entity puts up funds for the airport light rail. If the government actively stands in the way of this, then there is definitely some weird anti tram sentiment with the Liberals. At the moment I would be leaning more toward DPTI having been dragged kicking and screaming into tramway construction, just don't really want to know about it. Even the operation of the existing trams are excruciatingly slow. Despite all of this, commuters have voted with their feet, to make the Glenelg tram the most used PT corridor in Adelaide.

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Re: News & Discussion: Trams

#3437 Post by crawf » Wed Aug 29, 2018 10:31 am

Nathan wrote:
Wed Aug 29, 2018 9:43 am
Mpol03 wrote:
Wed Aug 29, 2018 8:38 am
One wonders... what if this mess has been some what encouraged by the current state government, dissuade people from any further team extensions?
It seems like a silly conspiracy theory, but when you watch two guys take an entire month to tile a single platform, you have to wonder.
It's beyond pathetic now. None of this happened with previous tramline extensions.

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Re: News & Discussion: Trams

#3438 Post by Kasey771 » Wed Aug 29, 2018 10:41 am

Mpol03 wrote:One wonders... what if this mess has been some what encouraged by the current state government, dissuade people from any further team extensions?
interesting thoughtImagethat's pretty Machiavellian, but after the shenanigans we've recently seen in Canberra, not much surprises me about our pollies anymore.



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Big infrastructure investments are usually under-valued and & over-criticized while in the planning stage. It's much easier to envision the here and now costs and inconveniences, and far more difficult to imagine fully the eventual benefits.

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Re: News & Discussion: Trams

#3439 Post by Tonsley213 » Wed Aug 29, 2018 10:56 am

My thoughts are there are some sour engineers having a whinge to there union because of York’s collapse.

140 defects is really nothing, most of them are likely to be just contractural things. Media just beating the story up.

Just my 2 cents

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Re: News & Discussion: Trams

#3440 Post by rubberman » Wed Aug 29, 2018 11:36 am

claybro wrote:
Wed Aug 29, 2018 9:58 am
Nathan wrote:
Wed Aug 29, 2018 9:43 am
Mpol03 wrote:
Wed Aug 29, 2018 8:38 am
One wonders... what if this mess has been some what encouraged by the current state government, dissuade people from any further team extensions?
It seems like a silly conspiracy theory, but when you watch two guys take an entire month to tile a single platform, you have to wonder.
The proof of this may be when a private entity puts up funds for the airport light rail. If the government actively stands in the way of this, then there is definitely some weird anti tram sentiment with the Liberals. At the moment I would be leaning more toward DPTI having been dragged kicking and screaming into tramway construction, just don't really want to know about it. Even the operation of the existing trams are excruciatingly slow. Despite all of this, commuters have voted with their feet, to make the Glenelg tram the most used PT corridor in Adelaide.
The terms reported for that private proposal were grossly uneconomic for taxpayers. Private money injections are only worth while if the total cost to taxpayers is reduced.

As far as DPTI goes, the problem is that planning and constructing new tram systems is a completely different technical skill set to building highways or even railways. It's like asking an electronics engineer to design a power station. They might muddle through a small station design, with plenty of mistakes too, but a big station would be asking for trouble.

Thus here. DPTI really don't have the expertise. Further, they don't know enough to be able to engage the right people. A lot of so called "light-rail" expertise is just heavy rail...but smaller. A totally wrong approach.

SA has had this problem twice before. In the early 1900s converting from horse to electric trams there was no knowledge base here...so they got in Sir William Goodman. Similarly in the 1920s, the existing SAR staff did not have the knowledge to be able to modernise the railways, so the government got in WA Webb.

In each case, the expedient of getting someone in with the right skill set was the key to very successful outcomes.

In fairness to DPTI, it's pretty hard to get someone of that calibre in to manage a one kilometre extension. Anyone that good would be working with major tramway undertakings, not fiddling about with small extensions.

In my view, if short tram extensions are going to happen here AND be successful, the government needs to get in someone from one of the major overseas tramway systems, plus Melbourne to vet the detailed design and construction processes, including vehicle acquisition. Those people should come from either the Czech Republic, Germany, Poland or Switzerland to ensure the best international standards are adhered to, and Melbourne to ensure compliance and conformance to Australian standards. Anything else will have exactly the same problems: people trying to do things way beyond their level of expertise because they don't know who to turn to.

And if there's to be even the slightest chance of a major tram system in Adelaide, it will require the engagement of someone like Sir William Goodman, or WA Webb. Anything less will lead to a disaster Sydney light rail style.

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Re: News & Discussion: Trams

#3441 Post by SRW » Wed Aug 29, 2018 11:51 am

It's worth noting that the people proposing the private airport tramline are the contractors responsible for this extension (alongside now collapsed York). Doesn't exactly fill one with confidence.
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Re: News & Discussion: Trams

#3442 Post by claybro » Wed Aug 29, 2018 12:57 pm

rubberman wrote:
Wed Aug 29, 2018 11:36 am
In my view, if short tram extensions are going to happen here AND be successful, the government needs to get in someone from one of the major overseas tramway systems, plus Melbourne to vet the detailed design and construction processes, including vehicle acquisition. Those people should come from either the Czech Republic, Germany, Poland or Switzerland to ensure the best international standards are adhered to, and Melbourne to ensure compliance and conformance to Australian standards. Anything else will have exactly the same problems: people trying to do things way beyond their level of expertise because they don't know who to turn to.
Or just Melbourne. Why source the world, when one of the largest and best systems in the world is just 700km away.

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Re: News & Discussion: Trams

#3443 Post by zippySA » Wed Aug 29, 2018 3:06 pm

Good points Rubberman. I wonder if another contributor to this is the Industry Participation Policy - almost an unintended consequence. As this requirement for Consultants and Contractors has increased of late, placing very real and high importance on locally based resources - when we tackle projects in Adelaide that are not the "norm" - this requirement compels companies to rebadge skills to suit potentially.
Let's face it - if you are a whizz at Tram design, would you live in Adelaide or where there is a constant source of work? I think this policy needs to be more considered (and reduced) when local skill sets are not readily available.

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Re: News & Discussion: Trams

#3444 Post by Eurostar » Wed Aug 29, 2018 6:43 pm

I feel any future tramlines be put on the bottom of list for now and focus on regional South Australia.

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Re: News & Discussion: Trams

#3445 Post by rubberman » Wed Aug 29, 2018 7:13 pm

claybro wrote:
Wed Aug 29, 2018 12:57 pm
rubberman wrote:
Wed Aug 29, 2018 11:36 am
In my view, if short tram extensions are going to happen here AND be successful, the government needs to get in someone from one of the major overseas tramway systems, plus Melbourne to vet the detailed design and construction processes, including vehicle acquisition. Those people should come from either the Czech Republic, Germany, Poland or Switzerland to ensure the best international standards are adhered to, and Melbourne to ensure compliance and conformance to Australian standards. Anything else will have exactly the same problems: people trying to do things way beyond their level of expertise because they don't know who to turn to.
Or just Melbourne. Why source the world, when one of the largest and best systems in the world is just 700km away.
People asked that question when both Mr Goodman, and Mr Webb were appointed. Webb's appointment was particularly contentious, given he was a US citizen. I suggest that the results speak for themselves.

I'd also point out that it's pretty courageous to assert that nobody else in the world knows more than Melbourne. Are you certain that's the case? Yes, it's a big, well run system. But the best in the world? Nothing to learn from other systems carrying many more passengers? Brave call. Heroic.

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Re: News & Discussion: Trams

#3446 Post by rubberman » Wed Aug 29, 2018 7:26 pm

zippySA wrote:
Wed Aug 29, 2018 3:06 pm
Good points Rubberman. I wonder if another contributor to this is the Industry Participation Policy - almost an unintended consequence. As this requirement for Consultants and Contractors has increased of late, placing very real and high importance on locally based resources - when we tackle projects in Adelaide that are not the "norm" - this requirement compels companies to rebadge skills to suit potentially.
Let's face it - if you are a whizz at Tram design, would you live in Adelaide or where there is a constant source of work? I think this policy needs to be more considered (and reduced) when local skill sets are not readily available.
Actually, the way to do it in this case is to get consultants, or a mix of them from one or two of the operating/construction authorities in Czech Republic, Germany, Hungary, Poland etc and have part of their brief include the use of local SA consultants as sub-consultants, as well as holding seminars for local professional groups. The idea being that SA consultants would get a very good uplift in capability. This could also include some limited University research on aspects of track technology, for example.

In this situation, short extensions, such as envisaged in the "Shuz Plan" published in this very forum, could be used to not only test new ideas, but also give local consultants the ability to put a lot more meat on their own CVs. Eg. "...used such and such method developed in Prague and confirmed by research in UniSA...blah blah. ..worked on Stage 1 of the SA Shuz Plan...blah blah..." That, in turn, provides much more work for SA consultancies. At the moment, it's more a case for these consultancies of saying: "...we worked on heavy rail, and this is just the same but lighter, right?..."...wrong.

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Re: News & Discussion: Trams

#3447 Post by ml69 » Wed Aug 29, 2018 10:27 pm

rubberman wrote:
Wed Aug 29, 2018 7:13 pm
claybro wrote:
Wed Aug 29, 2018 12:57 pm
rubberman wrote:
Wed Aug 29, 2018 11:36 am
In my view, if short tram extensions are going to happen here AND be successful, the government needs to get in someone from one of the major overseas tramway systems, plus Melbourne to vet the detailed design and construction processes, including vehicle acquisition. Those people should come from either the Czech Republic, Germany, Poland or Switzerland to ensure the best international standards are adhered to, and Melbourne to ensure compliance and conformance to Australian standards. Anything else will have exactly the same problems: people trying to do things way beyond their level of expertise because they don't know who to turn to.
Or just Melbourne. Why source the world, when one of the largest and best systems in the world is just 700km away.
People asked that question when both Mr Goodman, and Mr Webb were appointed. Webb's appointment was particularly contentious, given he was a US citizen. I suggest that the results speak for themselves.

I'd also point out that it's pretty courageous to assert that nobody else in the world knows more than Melbourne. Are you certain that's the case? Yes, it's a big, well run system. But the best in the world? Nothing to learn from other systems carrying many more passengers? Brave call. Heroic.
Who were the contractors for the first two stages of the tram extension? We didn't seem to have much drama with those extensions from (my hazy) memory?

I just don't understand why things are so problematic this time around .... we're just extending a tram route that has been extended twice in the past 10 years (ie recent experience). Also, we're using the same trams that we already have. Have we lost some key DPTI tram people since the last extension in 2010? Just doesn't add up.

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Re: News & Discussion: Trams

#3448 Post by claybro » Wed Aug 29, 2018 10:35 pm

rubberman wrote:
Wed Aug 29, 2018 7:13 pm
claybro wrote:
Wed Aug 29, 2018 12:57 pm
rubberman wrote:
Wed Aug 29, 2018 11:36 am
In my view, if short tram extensions are going to happen here AND be successful, the government needs to get in someone from one of the major overseas tramway systems, plus Melbourne to vet the detailed design and construction processes, including vehicle acquisition. Those people should come from either the Czech Republic, Germany, Poland or Switzerland to ensure the best international standards are adhered to, and Melbourne to ensure compliance and conformance to Australian standards. Anything else will have exactly the same problems: people trying to do things way beyond their level of expertise because they don't know who to turn to.
Or just Melbourne. Why source the world, when one of the largest and best systems in the world is just 700km away.
People asked that question when both Mr Goodman, and Mr Webb were appointed. Webb's appointment was particularly contentious, given he was a US citizen. I suggest that the results speak for themselves.

I'd also point out that it's pretty courageous to assert that nobody else in the world knows more than Melbourne. Are you certain that's the case? Yes, it's a big, well run system. But the best in the world? Nothing to learn from other systems carrying many more passengers? Brave call. Heroic.
One of the largest and one of the best... not necessarily the best. I've travelled on trams in both Germany and Prague. I don't see anything on those systems that is remarkably different to Melbourne. In fact some of the trams in Prague were pretty old, granted that was 7 years ago. Point being, the Melbourne system is probably most like what Adelaide aspires to. A mixture of road running, dedicated light rail corridor, tracks on ballast, tracks on concrete, tracks running through lawn.. they already have it all.. why travel to Germany or Prague or Poland? Why is our rolling stock from Germany and Spain? It is already all made just down the highway in Victoria.

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Re: News & Discussion: Trams

#3449 Post by PD2/20 » Wed Aug 29, 2018 10:58 pm

claybro wrote:
Wed Aug 29, 2018 10:35 pm

...

Why is our rolling stock from Germany and Spain? It is already all made just down the highway in Victoria.
10 years ago trams were not being manufactured in Victoria. Remember that in the early 2000s Melbourne were importing European trams. Between 1995 and 2010 there was somewhat of a hiatus in the tram market, which is when the majority of the modern Adelaide trams were acquired.

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Re: News & Discussion: Trams

#3450 Post by citywatcher » Wed Aug 29, 2018 11:00 pm

The contractors for the KW St extension were flown over from Melbourne


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