News & Discussion: Trams

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Re: News & Discussion: Trams

#3631 Post by I Follow PAFC » Thu Sep 27, 2018 12:47 pm

Shock $44m tram extension cost blowout
NORTH TCE LONG-running signalling faults mean the troubled North Tce tramline extension could blow its original $80 million budget by up to $44 million — and there’s still no start date, Transport Minister Stephan Knoll says.

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Re: News & Discussion: Trams

#3632 Post by jimbly » Thu Sep 27, 2018 1:33 pm

City tram expansion could blow out by $44 million
“We are extremely close to having a start date,” he said.
https://indaily.com.au/news/2018/09/27/ ... 4-million/

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Re: News & Discussion: Trams

#3633 Post by 1NEEDS2POST » Thu Sep 27, 2018 1:40 pm

None of these articles ever give a cost breakdown as to where the money actually goes. The government never tells us this.

In the absence of a cost breakdown, Occam's razor tells us that the $44 million was pocketed by Liberal Party mates.

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Re: News & Discussion: Trams

#3634 Post by Llessur2002 » Thu Sep 27, 2018 1:51 pm

North Tce tram extension shock $44m cost blowout

LONG-running signalling faults mean the troubled North Tce tramline extension could blow its original budget by up to $44 million, Transport Minister Stephan Knoll says.

Mr Knoll said the signalling faults stemmed back to January and had been the cause of a series of delays plaguing the extension.

He would not provide a date when trams would finally shuttle passengers further down North Tce, saying only that it would occur “very soon”.

“We are extremely close to having a start date for the trams. We’re working through the final kinks and we want to make sure that we protect taxpayers and get the tramline that South Australians are now paying an exorbitant amount for,” he said.

Mr Knoll said full service capacity testing was “progressing extremely well” but the Government was taking a cautious approach given the number of problems that had besieged the project.

The extension, from King William St to East Tce, was originally estimated to cost taxpayers $80 million but Mr Knoll said it could balloon out to as much as $124 million.

“As we’ve been saying all along, the ongoing issues with the tram extension relate to an issue with the signalling system which was installed way back in January,” he said.

“Labor buried this problem underground in January and now we know they have effectively buried up to $44 million along with it.

He said the Government would work to minimise the cost to taxpayers through a claims variation process. It’s unclear if the Government will be able to recoup any cost back from contractors involved in the project.

Labor transport spokesman Tom Koutsantonis said it was “pathetic” to pin the multiple tram delays on the former government.

“You’ve all seen Mr Knoll now come up with another excuse about the tram delay, trying to blame everything on Labor after the Premier announced a no excuses Government,” he said.

“But now all we’re getting from the Minister is excuses.

“Quite frankly, if he has a report saying that something went wrong under Labor, release it... the truth is this, they have over promised and they can’t deliver. They have promised that they would get this done, and they have wrecked it.”

In July, Mr Knoll’s department flew in German engineers in to “pinpoint” the exact cause of a signalling fault, after another delay to the extension.

The former Government initially promised the extension would be completed by March’s state election, but failed to meet the deadline. It was followed by a series of delays and problems under the current Government.
From: https://www.adelaidenow.com.au/news/sou ... c2c1988091

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Re: News & Discussion: Trams

#3635 Post by rubberman » Thu Sep 27, 2018 2:08 pm

1NEEDS2POST wrote:
Thu Sep 27, 2018 1:40 pm
None of these articles ever give a cost breakdown as to where the money actually goes. The government never tells us this.

In the absence of a cost breakdown, Occam's razor tells us that the $44 million was pocketed by Liberal Party mates.
I don't know if this sort of unsubstantiated accusation is helpful. One could just as easily make unsubstantiated claims about overpaid and overstaffed unionists.

What I think can be substantiated is that both governments and DPTI are ill equipped to plan, design and execute tram projects. They simply don't have the expertise to even engage people who know what they are doing (important point here) to the extent of installing a high value for money system. Both governments are an example of the saying: "Any idiot can do for $10 dollars what an expert can do for $1dollar".

What we have got will work, be successful eventually, but cost twice what it should.

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Re: News & Discussion: Trams

#3636 Post by Waewick » Thu Sep 27, 2018 2:41 pm

1NEEDS2POST wrote:
Thu Sep 27, 2018 1:40 pm
None of these articles ever give a cost breakdown as to where the money actually goes. The government never tells us this.

In the absence of a cost breakdown, Occam's razor tells us that the $44 million was pocketed by Liberal Party mates.
I suggest the most straight forward and argument with the least amount of assumptions is that it was a poorly thoughtout, planned and executed project.

that is pretty evident I would have thought.

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Re: News & Discussion: Trams

#3637 Post by rubberman » Thu Sep 27, 2018 5:15 pm

Waewick wrote:
Thu Sep 27, 2018 2:41 pm
1NEEDS2POST wrote:
Thu Sep 27, 2018 1:40 pm
None of these articles ever give a cost breakdown as to where the money actually goes. The government never tells us this.

In the absence of a cost breakdown, Occam's razor tells us that the $44 million was pocketed by Liberal Party mates.
I suggest the most straight forward and argument with the least amount of assumptions is that it was a poorly thoughtout, planned and executed project.

that is pretty evident I would have thought.
If we are going down the brevity route, we can summarise by saying that went badly.

I suggest it also means that any further forseeable tram extensions are off the table. There's simply no way that on this record any further extension could be economically viable. Any business case that went to Infrastructure Australia would need to be updated with this costing, unless DPTI could show it could reduce costs way down. DPTI cannot do that. Both political parties have not been able to get DPTI to get the expertise.

While I personally believe, based on what others do round the world, it could be made economic, it's not going to happen.

So, we should just write it off as a bad job, enjoy the new extension when it opens, and move on. We can shelve all the other stuff for the next few decades. Well, maybe a right hand turn... :hilarious: Although, the government, if it were smart, would use the $37m right turn money to pay for the extra cost of North Terrace. That way, it could get out of the ridiculous turn, and blame the ALP.

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Re: News & Discussion: Trams

#3638 Post by claybro » Thu Sep 27, 2018 5:30 pm

rubberman wrote:
Thu Sep 27, 2018 5:15 pm
So, we should just write it off as a bad job, enjoy the new extension when it opens, and move on. We can shelve all the other stuff for the next few decades
Do you think it will be that long? My guess is, that the voters of SA will be bored to death by the un-sexy Liberal government within 2 terms, and then just like WA Labour and Perth Metronet, SA Labour will be back with Adelink within 8 years. Hopefully next time, they have the smarts to keep pestering the Feds to cash up (perceived project viability or not), just like every other state has done for their big ticket rail projects, and not just construct the network inch by painful and shambolic inch.

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Re: News & Discussion: Trams

#3639 Post by rubberman » Thu Sep 27, 2018 5:45 pm

claybro wrote:
Thu Sep 27, 2018 5:30 pm
rubberman wrote:
Thu Sep 27, 2018 5:15 pm
So, we should just write it off as a bad job, enjoy the new extension when it opens, and move on. We can shelve all the other stuff for the next few decades
Do you think it will be that long? My guess is, that the voters of SA will be bored to death by the un-sexy Liberal government within 2 terms, and then just like WA Labour and Perth Metronet, SA Labour will be back with Adelink within 8 years. Hopefully next time, they have the smarts to keep pestering the Feds to cash up (perceived project viability or not), just like every other state has done for their big ticket rail projects, and not just construct the network inch by painful and shambolic inch.
Labor could well be back. Who can tell? The State Liberals haven't made too many obvious blunders 12.5% into their term.

However, a big tram system that may have made sense at $70m per km for say, 40km = $2.8bn, will look completely different at $105m per km = $4.2bn. It's the latter figure they would have to plan for. Of course, it could be done. But not by DPTI.

A future Federal/State ALP Government might swallow $2.8bn. But $4.2bn? Dreaming mate, dreaming. Not to mention that while the Next State government in March 2020 might be ALP, possibly. That gives only a year before there's another Federal election, which might return a Coalition government. Not long enough to do a major design and let a major construction contract.

Put all that together, and the chance of both Federal and State ALP Governments being in power for long enough and at the same time, plus the chance they would look at a four billion plus project. I think there's more chance of winning Powerball. No harm in dreaming though.

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Re: News & Discussion: Trams

#3640 Post by citywatcher » Thu Sep 27, 2018 6:00 pm

Signalling faults. $44m .
Yeah right .

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Re: News & Discussion: Trams

#3641 Post by claybro » Thu Sep 27, 2018 6:59 pm

rubberman wrote:
Thu Sep 27, 2018 5:45 pm
claybro wrote:
Thu Sep 27, 2018 5:30 pm
rubberman wrote:
Thu Sep 27, 2018 5:15 pm
So, we should just write it off as a bad job, enjoy the new extension when it opens, and move on. We can shelve all the other stuff for the next few decades
Do you think it will be that long? My guess is, that the voters of SA will be bored to death by the un-sexy Liberal government within 2 terms, and then just like WA Labour and Perth Metronet, SA Labour will be back with Adelink within 8 years. Hopefully next time, they have the smarts to keep pestering the Feds to cash up (perceived project viability or not), just like every other state has done for their big ticket rail projects, and not just construct the network inch by painful and shambolic inch.
Labor could well be back. Who can tell? The State Liberals haven't made too many obvious blunders 12.5% into their term.

However, a big tram system that may have made sense at $70m per km for say, 40km = $2.8bn, will look completely different at $105m per km = $4.2bn. It's the latter figure they would have to plan for. Of course, it could be done. But not by DPTI.

A future Federal/State ALP Government might swallow $2.8bn. But $4.2bn? Dreaming mate, dreaming. Not to mention that while the Next State government in March 2020 might be ALP, possibly. That gives only a year before there's another Federal election, which might return a Coalition government. Not long enough to do a major design and let a major construction contract.

Put all that together, and the chance of both Federal and State ALP Governments being in power for long enough and at the same time, plus the chance they would look at a four billion plus project. I think there's more chance of winning Powerball. No harm in dreaming though.
Your economics aside, which I agree with, it does not require both a federal and state Labour government to secure rail funding, or nessesarliy for the figures to add up. Agree the Liberals state are not partial to rail.. roads and buses where possible, however the current Federal Liberals have definitely demonstartated no ideological barrier to rail funding. They have been putting up billions in funding for rail of all types in all states. Much less so in SA evidentially, but that may be down to not having had a cohesive professional department to do the lobbying.

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Re: News & Discussion: Trams

#3642 Post by timtam20292 » Fri Sep 28, 2018 2:31 pm

Dear Stakeholder

Thank you for your continued patience and ongoing interest in the City Tram Extension Project whilst testing continues.

There will be no works this Friday, Saturday or Sunday with general re-instatement night works to continue next week, including general tidy up works along the track and minor signalling label works on footpaths along the extension, from Monday 1 October, 7:30pm - 6am each night. Access to businesses and properties will be maintained.

Some speed and lane restrictions will apply in the vicinity of the works, with one lane maintained in each direction.

For more information on the City Tram Extension Project please visit www.citytramextension.sa.gov.au, call the enquiry line on 1300 030 919 or email DPTI.CityTramExt@sa.gov.au.

Regards

Stakeholder and Community Engagement Team

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Re: News & Discussion: Trams

#3643 Post by The Scooter Guy » Sun Sep 30, 2018 9:40 pm

timtam20292 wrote:
Fri Sep 28, 2018 2:31 pm
Dear Stakeholder

Thank you for your continued patience and ongoing interest in the City Tram Extension Project whilst testing continues.

There will be no works this Friday, Saturday or Sunday with general re-instatement night works to continue next week, including general tidy up works along the track and minor signalling label works on footpaths along the extension, from Monday 1 October, 7:30pm - 6am each night. Access to businesses and properties will be maintained.

Some speed and lane restrictions will apply in the vicinity of the works, with one lane maintained in each direction.

For more information on the City Tram Extension Project please visit www.citytramextension.sa.gov.au, call the enquiry line on 1300 030 919 or email DPTI.CityTramExt@sa.gov.au.

Regards

Stakeholder and Community Engagement Team
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Re: News & Discussion: Trams

#3644 Post by rubberman » Mon Oct 01, 2018 6:38 am

The Scooter Guy wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 9:40 pm
timtam20292 wrote:
Fri Sep 28, 2018 2:31 pm
Dear Stakeholder

Thank you for your continued patience and ongoing interest in the City Tram Extension Project whilst testing continues.

There will be no works this Friday, Saturday or Sunday with general re-instatement night works to continue next week, including general tidy up works along the track and minor signalling label works on footpaths along the extension, from Monday 1 October, 7:30pm - 6am each night. Access to businesses and properties will be maintained.

Some speed and lane restrictions will apply in the vicinity of the works, with one lane maintained in each direction.

For more information on the City Tram Extension Project please visit www.citytramextension.sa.gov.au, call the enquiry line on 1300 030 919 or email DPTI.CityTramExt@sa.gov.au.

Regards

Stakeholder and Community Engagement Team
Magic Mirror on the wall, when will the new extension be open to all?
Thank you for calling magic mirror prediction services, all our consultants are busy in Sydney right now. Your call is important to us, and you have been placed in a queue until one of our friendly staff can deal with you.

Cue to endless loop of "Time Passages by Al Stewart" in the background

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Re: News & Discussion: Trams

#3645 Post by LanewayMapper » Mon Oct 01, 2018 5:00 pm

rubberman wrote:
Mon Oct 01, 2018 6:38 am
The Scooter Guy wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 9:40 pm
timtam20292 wrote:
Fri Sep 28, 2018 2:31 pm
Magic Mirror on the wall, when will the new extension be open to all?
Thank you for calling magic mirror prediction services, all our consultants are busy in Sydney right now. Your call is important to us, and you have been placed in a queue until one of our friendly staff can deal with you.

Cue to endless loop of "Time Passages by Al Stewart" in the background
I've heard from people in the know that the odds are looking better for services commencing before the end of the year rather than in the new year.

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