News & Discussion: Trams

Threads relating to transport, water, etc. within the CBD and Metropolitan area.
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SRW
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Re: News & Discussion: Trams

#3136 Post by SRW » Wed Jun 20, 2018 8:20 pm

Um... how exactly would platform balustrading conduct electricity from catenary wires except in the most extreme of circumstances?
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Re: News & Discussion: Trams

#3137 Post by Ho Really » Thu Jun 21, 2018 12:53 am

SRW wrote:
Wed Jun 20, 2018 8:20 pm
Um... how exactly would platform balustrading conduct electricity from catenary wires except in the most extreme of circumstances?
Perhaps in an accident? Bottomline this project has been rushed and delayed through mismanagment. Gives us a bad image!
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Re: News & Discussion: Trams

#3138 Post by Norman » Thu Jun 21, 2018 11:32 am

Ho Really wrote:
SRW wrote:
Wed Jun 20, 2018 8:20 pm
Um... how exactly would platform balustrading conduct electricity from catenary wires except in the most extreme of circumstances?
Perhaps in an accident? Bottomline this project has been rushed and delayed through mismanagment. Gives us a bad image!
Who is "us"?

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Re: News & Discussion: Trams

#3139 Post by Bob » Thu Jun 21, 2018 1:36 pm

The quality is going to be remembered long after any delays or the cost.

Even though the project has been a dogs breakfast, it is best to delay any opening until any known issues are addressed properly to get right.

I really hope there is a full post mortem of this project, so if future tram extensions get the go ahead, the lessons learned will be used for better planning and project management next time around.

What should have been a very positive infrastructure project in a prime strip of Adelaide CBD has been blighted, vut as above, the only hope is next time those shortcomings will be taken into consideration in advance.

I am still looking on the positive side that once its up and running smoothly for 6-12 months, people will come around and sing its praises and hopefully the new Govt's Infrastructure 'team' will eventually come to the same conclusion the recent PcW report on Adelaide did, i.e. light transport options are key. I heard the new Govt are still keen on the North Adelaide extension and the City Loop of some description, in the long term.

Shouldn't let this one time bad experience stop progress altogether.

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Re: News & Discussion: Trams

#3140 Post by claybro » Thu Jun 21, 2018 2:35 pm

Bob wrote:
Thu Jun 21, 2018 1:36 pm
The quality is going to be remembered long after any delays or the cost.

Even though the project has been a dogs breakfast, it is best to delay any opening until any known issues are addressed properly to get right.

I really hope there is a full post mortem of this project, so if future tram extensions get the go ahead, the lessons learned will be used for better planning and project management next time around.

What should have been a very positive infrastructure project in a prime strip of Adelaide CBD has been blighted, vut as above, the only hope is next time those shortcomings will be taken into consideration in advance.

I am still looking on the positive side that once its up and running smoothly for 6-12 months, people will come around and sing its praises and hopefully the new Govt's Infrastructure 'team' will eventually come to the same conclusion the recent PcW report on Adelaide did, i.e. light transport options are key. I heard the new Govt are still keen on the North Adelaide extension and the City Loop of some description, in the long term.

Shouldn't let this one time bad experience stop progress altogether.
It is hard to imagine that a decade after the first KWS extension, which from memory went pretty well to plan, and then the Hindmarsh extension, likewise, this particular project has been so problematical. I realise this was a 2 way extension, with a complicated junction in the middle, but the problems seem not to be resulting from the more difficult aspects, but the normal stuff-wires, poles, platforms... that should be well bedded down after a decade of dealing with this stuff. We can't really claim to be novices at tramway construction, when we have been at it for a decade now. Unfortunately, these constant problems only feed in to the media frenzy, and the general publics reluctant acceptance of the projects from the start.

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Re: News & Discussion: Trams

#3141 Post by English Electric » Thu Jun 21, 2018 3:04 pm

SRW wrote:
Wed Jun 20, 2018 8:20 pm
Um... how exactly would platform balustrading conduct electricity from catenary wires except in the most extreme of circumstances?
I suspect the risk of "live" fixtures & fittings at tram stops is due to possible stray current arising from the traction current returning to earth when a tram is under power in the vicinity. This current is meant to return to earth through the running rails, but conductive items nearby can be affected in some circumstances.

The risk is nothing to do with current "jumping" from the overhead line (750V is considered very much "low voltage" in electrical engineering terms), nor with some incident where the overhead comes down.

The normal way the stray current is dealt with is by attaching a robust electrical earth connection to any piece of ironmongery that's at risk.
This can mean, for example, a metal plate buried in the earth, connected by a short lengths of heavy duty cable. You can spot these earthing connections bolted onto the metal fences and shelters at stops on the "main line" to Glenelg (installed 2006-ish by contractors who obviously knew what they were doing). Same precautions can be seen at stations on the Seaford/Tonsley lines.

Presumably whoever installed the fences on North Terrace forgot to do the earthing.
Though I can't understand why you would need to scrap the balustrading, as oppossed to retrofitting a proper earth connection.

There's nothing inherently unsafe about having this style of metal balustrades there - the Super Stops around Melbourne CBD are very similar to the new stops on North Terrace and these have managed fine, as seen in the pictures here: http://www.australianbollards.com.au/bl ... arra-trams

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Re: News & Discussion: Trams

#3142 Post by Norman » Thu Jun 21, 2018 3:49 pm

claybro wrote:
Bob wrote:
Thu Jun 21, 2018 1:36 pm
The quality is going to be remembered long after any delays or the cost.

Even though the project has been a dogs breakfast, it is best to delay any opening until any known issues are addressed properly to get right.

I really hope there is a full post mortem of this project, so if future tram extensions get the go ahead, the lessons learned will be used for better planning and project management next time around.

What should have been a very positive infrastructure project in a prime strip of Adelaide CBD has been blighted, vut as above, the only hope is next time those shortcomings will be taken into consideration in advance.

I am still looking on the positive side that once its up and running smoothly for 6-12 months, people will come around and sing its praises and hopefully the new Govt's Infrastructure 'team' will eventually come to the same conclusion the recent PcW report on Adelaide did, i.e. light transport options are key. I heard the new Govt are still keen on the North Adelaide extension and the City Loop of some description, in the long term.

Shouldn't let this one time bad experience stop progress altogether.
It is hard to imagine that a decade after the first KWS extension, which from memory went pretty well to plan, and then the Hindmarsh extension, likewise, this particular project has been so problematical. I realise this was a 2 way extension, with a complicated junction in the middle, but the problems seem not to be resulting from the more difficult aspects, but the normal stuff-wires, poles, platforms... that should be well bedded down after a decade of dealing with this stuff. We can't really claim to be novices at tramway construction, when we have been at it for a decade now. Unfortunately, these constant problems only feed in to the media frenzy, and the general publics reluctant acceptance of the projects from the start.
I believe a lot of experienced workers have left the department since those days, including Emma Tobias (that was her name from memory) who transferred to the Canberra Light Rail project a few years ago. The people in charge now are very different to those days.

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Re: News & Discussion: Trams

#3143 Post by OlympusAnt » Thu Jun 21, 2018 3:58 pm

timtam20292 wrote:
Wed Jun 20, 2018 7:15 pm
You have got to be joking. What more dramas could possibly unfold with the extension? Just wow. :shock:
The rails will start lifting next.
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Re: News & Discussion: Trams

#3144 Post by mawsonguy » Thu Jun 21, 2018 5:17 pm

claybro wrote:
Thu Jun 21, 2018 2:35 pm
It is hard to imagine that a decade after the first KWS extension, which from memory went pretty well to plan, and then the Hindmarsh extension, likewise, this particular project has been so problematical.
Not quite right. If my memory is correct, there were problems with the underground conduit on the Hindmarsh extension with threats by the government to sue the contractor.

A project manager once said to me "I can deliver the project on time, within budget and on spec - pick any two". At the end of the day, this project will be to spec (after the stuff ups are fixed) and allegedly within budget (after allowing for the "hurry up" payment the previous government made). That said, the lengthy periods of relative inaction are indicative of a failure of project management.

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Re: News & Discussion: Trams

#3145 Post by timtam20292 » Thu Jun 21, 2018 5:38 pm

Latest update sent to me just now.
Dear Stakeholder,

The Department would like to notify you of works planned on North Terrace to be undertaken by SA Power Networks as part of the City Tram Extension.

These works are scheduled to commence at 4am on Saturday 23 June 2018 and be completed by 6pm on Sunday 24 June 2018, weather permitting. Works include modification to an existing High Voltage pit located between Charles Street and Gawler Place.

Speed and lane restrictions will be in place in the vicinity of each stage of the works, however the road will remain open to traffic in both directions at all times. A 25km/h speed restriction will be in place while workers are on site.

Access to businesses and properties will be maintained throughout the works.

With respect to project media in the last 24-hours, tram testing has identified some issues with electrical systems. Electrical and signalling systems associated with tramways are complex and require rigorous testing prior to commencement of passenger services. Works are continuing to rectify these matters as soon as possible. We will provide a further update tomorrow.

If you have any further queries, please contact the project team on [email protected] or 1300 030 919.

kind regards,

The Stakeholder and Community Engagement Team

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Re: News & Discussion: Trams

#3146 Post by claybro » Fri Jun 22, 2018 11:10 am

timtam20292 wrote:
Thu Jun 21, 2018 5:38 pm
Electrical and signalling systems associated with tramways are complex and require rigorous testing prior to commencement of passenger services
.

(not Timtam's quote but taken from the DPTI post)

But do they need to be? Really? There was a time when they strung some wires from telegraph poles, ran electricity in the wires, and some old horse drawn trams where fitted with electric motors. Then with the advent of traffic lights, the trams followed the same rules as other road users. The trams of early last century ran at the same speed, with the same capacity as those now. It is essentially the same technology as 100 years ago. What is the need of all this complicated electrical and signalling they speak of?

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Re: News & Discussion: Trams

#3147 Post by timtam20292 » Sat Jun 23, 2018 12:10 pm

Sent to me yesterday:
Dear Stakeholder,

Thank you for your continued interest in the City Tram Extension Project and patience while works are completed.

Test Trams will continue Monday night. This is an important and necessary step towards ensuring services will run smoothly and safely once they commence. We have been unable to provide a confirmed date for project completion as this is dependant on the outcomes of line testing, the rectification of issues identified and completion of mandatory driver training.

During testing already completed, the hand rails on the tram platforms were deemed to hold a potential risk under extreme circumstances. While the potential for this to occur was exceptionally slim, it is vital that we continually uphold the strictest of safety standards. As you are aware hand rail rectification works are currently underway.

A reminder SA Power Networks pit modification works will commence on North Terrace, between Charles Street and Gawler Place, from 4am Saturday 23 June 2018 and be completed by 6pm Sunday 24 June 2018. A Notification is attached for further information.

Kerbing works will continue over the weekend, at the North Terrace and King William Street intersection. Some speed and lane restrictions will apply in the vicinity of the works.

Regards

Stakeholder and Community Engagement Team

For more information on the City Tram Extension Project please visit www.citytramextension.sa.gov.au, call the enquiry line on 1300 030 919 or email [email protected].

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Re: News & Discussion: Trams

#3148 Post by rubberman » Sat Jun 23, 2018 6:03 pm

claybro wrote:
Fri Jun 22, 2018 11:10 am
timtam20292 wrote:
Thu Jun 21, 2018 5:38 pm
Electrical and signalling systems associated with tramways are complex and require rigorous testing prior to commencement of passenger services
.

(not Timtam's quote but taken from the DPTI post)

But do they need to be? Really? There was a time when they strung some wires from telegraph poles, ran electricity in the wires, and some old horse drawn trams where fitted with electric motors. Then with the advent of traffic lights, the trams followed the same rules as other road users. The trams of early last century ran at the same speed, with the same capacity as those now. It is essentially the same technology as 100 years ago. What is the need of all this complicated electrical and signalling they speak of?
Of course not. The scissors crossovers in Victoria Square and at Glenelg had zero dedicated signalling. Never a problem. At Vic Square the motormen used the normal traffic lights.

For information, the Christchurch (NZ) Council built a heritage single track tramway in their CBD. It carries trams with similar axle loads. It survived two earthquakes unscathed. Cost? $5m/km! So, let's double that for two tracks (mind you, with economies of scale it shouldn't double). That's $10m for a kilometre. Ok, let's add 50% for stops and power conversion. That's $15m per kM. In the CBD. Able to take trams of similar axle loads, and earthquake resistant.

By that measure, the extension to North Adelaide should cost $33m. Ok, let's add four top of the range, all whistles and bells Škoda 15T Forcity at $6m each. That's $57m. Now, most projects incur hidden and unexpected costs. Let's allow 20%. That brings it up to $70m, based on real, proven track technology, and top of the line trams.

On that basis, the $220m to get to North Adelaide is excessive. That amount should have funded the line to Prospect entirely. Based on actual constructed track with proven durability, built by a Council in NZ. Any statements that it cannot be done here, frankly, need some damn good proof.

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Re: News & Discussion: Trams

#3149 Post by PD2/20 » Sat Jun 23, 2018 6:35 pm

rubberman wrote:
Sat Jun 23, 2018 6:03 pm
claybro wrote:
Fri Jun 22, 2018 11:10 am
timtam20292 wrote:
Thu Jun 21, 2018 5:38 pm
Electrical and signalling systems associated with tramways are complex and require rigorous testing prior to commencement of passenger services
.

(not Timtam's quote but taken from the DPTI post)

But do they need to be? Really? There was a time when they strung some wires from telegraph poles, ran electricity in the wires, and some old horse drawn trams where fitted with electric motors. Then with the advent of traffic lights, the trams followed the same rules as other road users. The trams of early last century ran at the same speed, with the same capacity as those now. It is essentially the same technology as 100 years ago. What is the need of all this complicated electrical and signalling they speak of?
Of course not. The scissors crossovers in Victoria Square and at Glenelg had zero dedicated signalling. Never a problem. At Vic Square the motormen used the normal traffic lights.

...
Claybro, none of Adelaide's original electric trams were converted from horse trams. Dedicated cast iron poles were used for the overhead, some of which survived in North Terrace until recently. Junctions points like North Tce/King William were controlled from an interlocked signal cabin and trams were routed by visual observation of route indicators.

Rubberman, how were the scissors at Vic Sq and Glenelg actuated? By traction current control? That form of control is no longer possible due to the substantial auxiliary load for aircon on modern trams. Hence the present day use of transponder actuation of facing points, with possible triggering of traffic lights.

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Re: News & Discussion: Trams

#3150 Post by citywatcher » Sat Jun 23, 2018 6:40 pm

They were digging with heavy machinery at the Gawler Place station today
Footpaths are still a bloody mess

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