News & Discussion: Trams

Threads relating to transport, water, etc. within the CBD and Metropolitan area.
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claybro
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Re: News & Discussion: Trams

#3871 Post by claybro » Fri Dec 28, 2018 7:32 am

Beg to differ re the 10km optimal distance for trams. In the European experience, trams are often used on routes 30 km and more and very often in semi rural settings between villages. As for park and ride, well they are an unfortunate part of our sprawling suburbia, but are better placed at major train stations in outer suburbs.

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Re: News & Discussion: Trams

#3872 Post by SBD » Fri Dec 28, 2018 8:44 am

claybro wrote:
Fri Dec 28, 2018 7:32 am
Beg to differ re the 10km optimal distance for trams. In the European experience, trams are often used on routes 30 km and more and very often in semi rural settings between villages. As for park and ride, well they are an unfortunate part of our sprawling suburbia, but are better placed at major train stations in outer suburbs.
So now that the Gawler Railway Line is nothing but a commuter service, would you advocate replacing it with a tram line to service the villages of Prospect, Enfield, Mawson Lakes, Salisbury, Elizabeth, Smithfield, Gawler? I guess that is what happened to the Glenelg Train a century ago.

In "the good old days", what we now know as Adelaide had three separate tram systems. The Gawler and Port Adelaide trams were both isolated, but linked by the railways to the City of Adelaide.

I think we have deliberately built and cultivated an environment where every household has at least one car, and the "villages" are connected by roads built to encourage those cars. It would take just as long to change the culture back to an environment where most households do not own a car (or a horse and buggy) and walk or rely on the trams to get to school, work, shopping, friends.

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Re: News & Discussion: Trams

#3873 Post by rubberman » Fri Dec 28, 2018 9:14 am

claybro wrote:
Fri Dec 28, 2018 7:32 am
Beg to differ re the 10km optimal distance for trams. In the European experience, trams are often used on routes 30 km and more and very often in semi rural settings between villages. As for park and ride, well they are an unfortunate part of our sprawling suburbia, but are better placed at major train stations in outer suburbs.
Yes, it's not so much the length of the line that determines whether trains are more suitable than trams, but rather the number of stops and the terrain.

If the vehicle is frequently stopping, or there are steeper grades, a tram is usually better. If, otoh, there are few stops and easy grades, trains are usually the best solution.

It's the short distances between stations mostly in Adelaide that have trams occasionally being proposed for lines like Outer Harbor and grades and curves for Belair.

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Re: News & Discussion: Trams

#3874 Post by claybro » Mon Dec 31, 2018 12:08 pm

With regard also as to light v heavy rail, I happened to be in SA last week and used both the Glenelg tram and the Grange train. What struck me was the incredible slow pace of the train. It was virtually walking pace out of Adelaide yard, and barely 40 km/h to Bowden. The tram on the other hand, seems to have sped up, the driver that day practically gunned it through the parklands section after leaving South Terrace. Speed between the stops was reasonable as well. The train on the other hand.. not good. If and when a CBD rail loop is constructed, heavy rail would be the go, but for god sake... speed it up.

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Re: News & Discussion: Trams

#3875 Post by gnrc_louis » Mon Dec 31, 2018 12:12 pm

claybro wrote:
Mon Dec 31, 2018 12:08 pm
With regard also as to light v heavy rail, I happened to be in SA last week and used both the Glenelg tram and the Grange train. What struck me was the incredible slow pace of the train. It was virtually walking pace out of Adelaide yard, and barely 40 km/h to Bowden. The tram on the other hand, seems to have sped up, the driver that day practically gunned it through the parklands section after leaving South Terrace. Speed between the stops was reasonable as well. The train on the other hand.. not good. If and when a CBD rail loop is constructed, heavy rail would be the go, but for god sake... speed it up.
I catch the Grange train on a near daily basis and since the Torrens Rail Junction Project, the time it takes to get from Bowden to the City is usually 2-3 minutes, so your experience was the exception rather than the norm.

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Re: News & Discussion: Trams

#3876 Post by adelaide transport » Tue Jan 01, 2019 1:06 pm

Trams are still ver slow,it takes too long from the City t Glenelg
DPTI should be working on the priority for trams at traffic lights to speed up services.

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Re: News & Discussion: Trams

#3877 Post by rubberman » Tue Jan 01, 2019 1:39 pm

adelaide transport wrote:
Tue Jan 01, 2019 1:06 pm
Trams are still ver slow,it takes too long from the City t Glenelg
DPTI should be working on the priority for trams at traffic lights to speed up services.
From what I can gather, Melbourne C class trams are speed restricted on open ballast track. If that is so, then it's probably also true in Adelaide.

Mind you, this is a guess.

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Re: News & Discussion: Trams

#3878 Post by claybro » Wed Jan 02, 2019 10:00 am

The Glenelg tram takes approximate 10 minutes more to travel from vic square to mostly square- as the train to Grange. It is a similar distance give or take a k and the tram had more than twice the number of stops, and has to contend with street running either end. Not to say the tram is running anywhere near as fast as it could, but it also highlights the inadequacy of the heavy rail to Grange.. short route, few stops and yet still slow.

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Re: News & Discussion: Trams

#3879 Post by gnrc_louis » Wed Jan 02, 2019 12:09 pm

claybro wrote:
Wed Jan 02, 2019 10:00 am
The Glenelg tram takes approximate 10 minutes more to travel from vic square to mostly square- as the train to Grange. It is a similar distance give or take a k and the tram had more than twice the number of stops, and has to contend with street running either end. Not to say the tram is running anywhere near as fast as it could, but it also highlights the inadequacy of the heavy rail to Grange.. short route, few stops and yet still slow.
Lol you love any opportunity to shoehorn in an attack on the Grange train - tedious. I would argue that Croydon and West Croydon stations are probably too close together, as are potentially Woodville Park and Woodville stations. Also, electrifying both the Outer Harbour and Grange lines would make them both faster too of course. However, maybe it does make more sense to convert them both to light rail - something which has already been discussed at length on these forums.

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Re: News & Discussion: Trams

#3880 Post by claybro » Wed Jan 02, 2019 1:12 pm

gnrc_louis wrote:
Wed Jan 02, 2019 12:09 pm
claybro wrote:
Wed Jan 02, 2019 10:00 am
The Glenelg tram takes approximate 10 minutes more to travel from vic square to mostly square- as the train to Grange. It is a similar distance give or take a k and the tram had more than twice the number of stops, and has to contend with street running either end. Not to say the tram is running anywhere near as fast as it could, but it also highlights the inadequacy of the heavy rail to Grange.. short route, few stops and yet still slow.
Lol you love any opportunity to shoehorn in an attack on the Grange train - tedious. I would argue that Croydon and West Croydon stations are probably too close together, as are potentially Woodville Park and Woodville stations. Also, electrifying both the Outer Harbour and Grange lines would make them both faster too of course. However, maybe it does make more sense to convert them both to light rail - something which has already been discussed at length on these forums.
Sorry if you find my observations tedious. At the end of the day, I rarely commute in Adelaide now, and can only compare the operation of the two lines from my recent visit. I used to also use Grange train regularly from Albert Park about 15 years ago, and from my recent observation it has slowed significantly, particularly through the new Torrens junction. It is important to compare Grange /v Glenelg, as they serve a similar purpose, over a similar distance, and important decisions on the Grange line will be forced within the next decade as the 3000 series are ending their useful life. Whatever DPTI decide, they need to seriously look at efficiency and speed, because on both modes these are seriously lacking, and this is only down to operational issues, not the capability of the technology or various modes.

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Re: News & Discussion: Trams

#3881 Post by A-Town » Wed Jan 02, 2019 6:38 pm

claybro wrote:
Wed Jan 02, 2019 10:00 am
The Glenelg tram takes approximate 10 minutes more to travel from vic square to mostly square- as the train to Grange. It is a similar distance give or take a k and the tram had more than twice the number of stops, and has to contend with street running either end. Not to say the tram is running anywhere near as fast as it could, but it also highlights the inadequacy of the heavy rail to Grange.. short route, few stops and yet still slow.
The tram doesn't take 10 minutes to get from Glenelg to Vic Square. In peak hour, it takes at roughly 10 minutes just to get from Greenhill Rd to Pirie St as vehicles take priority over trams.

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Re: News & Discussion: Trams

#3882 Post by timtam20292 » Wed Jan 02, 2019 7:19 pm

10 minutes from Victoria Square to Mosley Square? :hilarious:

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Re: News & Discussion: Trams

#3883 Post by SRW » Wed Jan 02, 2019 7:28 pm

Claybro said the journey to Mosley Sq took 10 minutes more to terminus than the Grange line, not 10 minutes total.
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Re: News & Discussion: Trams

#3884 Post by claybro » Wed Jan 02, 2019 10:29 pm

SRW wrote:
Wed Jan 02, 2019 7:28 pm
Claybro said the journey to Mosley Sq took 10 minutes more to terminus than the Grange line, not 10 minutes total.
Thank you SRW. Seems people on here love a pile on and don't read the detail. Point is, the two routes provide a good insight in what to do, or not to do when considering heavy v light rail. Given the extra cost to upgrade Grange to heavy electrified rail, as opposed to light rail, we would hope it is light speed faster than the current Grange line.. or it will be a monumental waste, and not attract the extra commuters to make it worthwhile.

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Re: News & Discussion: Trams

#3885 Post by gnrc_louis » Wed Jan 02, 2019 11:08 pm

Anthony Albanese, the man expected to be Australia’s next infrastructure minister, pleads the case for light rail
Matt Smith, National Affairs Editor, The Advertiser
an hour ago
Subscriber only
Extending the Adelaide tram network should be the state’s public transport priority, says the man expected to be Australia’s next infrastructure minister.

Opposition infrastructure spokesman Anthony Albanese told The Advertiser that a Bill Shorten-led federal Labor government would commit to the former SA Labor government’s AdeLINK plan.

Tram services to Norwood, Unley, Prospect and Adelaide Airport were to be delivered under the scheme.

The tram extension on North Terrace. Picture: AAP / Dean Martin
“The extension of light rail in Adelaide completely makes sense in terms of dollar value,” Mr Albanese said.

“You have wide streets, it is flat, light rail is very efficient at moving people around and it is very convenient.

“The benefit of AdeLINK was that it was a proposal to expand it everywhere.”
The Steven Marshall-led state Liberals have scrapped the former government’s tram extension plans. Mr Marshall argued in the lead-up to last year’s state election that many of the proposed routes, particularly a line to The Parade at Norwood, were not necessary.

He instead committed to send four city loop options and one for a North Adelaide extension to Infrastructure SA for assessment.

But in September the State Government was caught unawares by revelations former Prime Minister Malcolm Turnbull, before being ousted, had plans to fund a $185 million extension of the Adelaide tram network.

SA Infrastructure Minister Stephan Knoll told the Sunday Mail in July nothing was off the table as work began on designing the best public transport system for greater Adelaide.

Mr Knoll yesterday said creating an efficient and sustainable system remained a priority.

“With rapid advancements in technology such as trackless trams, autonomous vehicles and the expansion of ride sharing we don’t want to limit our thinking just to light rail,” Mr Knoll said.

“The South Australian Public Transport Authority will inform the development of a comprehensive strategy that is customer-focused, more reliable and better suits the needs of the state.”

Mr Knoll said the authority should be up and running by the end of the year

With rapid advancements in technology such as trackless trams, autonomous vehicles and the expansion of ride sharing we don’t want to limit our thinking just to light rail,” Mr Knoll said.

Trackless trams aka still unproven technology (their faults have already been discussed earlier in this thread I think/a cynic would suggest they're just buses), and ride sharing - which is Uber, Ola etc? :toilet:

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