News & Discussion: Trams

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citywatcher
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Re: News & Discussion: Trams

#3886 Post by citywatcher » Wed Jan 02, 2019 11:13 pm

gnrc_louis wrote:
Anthony Albanese, the man expected to be Australia’s next infrastructure minister, pleads the case for light rail
Matt Smith, National Affairs Editor, The Advertiser
an hour ago
Subscriber only
Extending the Adelaide tram network should be the state’s public transport priority, says the man expected to be Australia’s next infrastructure minister.

Opposition infrastructure spokesman Anthony Albanese told The Advertiser that a Bill Shorten-led federal Labor government would commit to the former SA Labor government’s AdeLINK plan.

Tram services to Norwood, Unley, Prospect and Adelaide Airport were to be delivered under the scheme.

The tram extension on North Terrace. Picture: AAP / Dean Martin
“The extension of light rail in Adelaide completely makes sense in terms of dollar value,” Mr Albanese said.

“You have wide streets, it is flat, light rail is very efficient at moving people around and it is very convenient.

“The benefit of AdeLINK was that it was a proposal to expand it everywhere.”
The Steven Marshall-led state Liberals have scrapped the former government’s tram extension plans. Mr Marshall argued in the lead-up to last year’s state election that many of the proposed routes, particularly a line to The Parade at Norwood, were not necessary.

He instead committed to send four city loop options and one for a North Adelaide extension to Infrastructure SA for assessment.

But in September the State Government was caught unawares by revelations former Prime Minister Malcolm Turnbull, before being ousted, had plans to fund a $185 million extension of the Adelaide tram network.

SA Infrastructure Minister Stephan Knoll told the Sunday Mail in July nothing was off the table as work began on designing the best public transport system for greater Adelaide.

Mr Knoll yesterday said creating an efficient and sustainable system remained a priority.

“With rapid advancements in technology such as trackless trams, autonomous vehicles and the expansion of ride sharing we don’t want to limit our thinking just to light rail,” Mr Knoll said.

“The South Australian Public Transport Authority will inform the development of a comprehensive strategy that is customer-focused, more reliable and better suits the needs of the state.”

Mr Knoll said the authority should be up and running by the end of the year

With rapid advancements in technology such as trackless trams, autonomous vehicles and the expansion of ride sharing we don’t want to limit our thinking just to light rail,” Mr Knoll said.

Trackless trams aka still unproven technology (their faults have already been discussed earlier in this thread I think/a cynic would suggest they're just buses), and ride sharing - which is Uber, Ola etc? :toilet:
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Re: News & Discussion: Trams

#3887 Post by Patrick_27 » Wed Jan 02, 2019 11:39 pm

Mr Knoll said the authority should be up and running by the end of the year


By the end of the year? They've been in since March, how fucking hard is it to bring together a group of people and start developing a strategy...

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Re: News & Discussion: Trams

#3888 Post by rev » Thu Jan 03, 2019 12:01 am

Patrick_27 wrote:
Wed Jan 02, 2019 11:39 pm
Mr Knoll said the authority should be up and running by the end of the year
By the end of the year? They've been in since March, how fucking hard is it to bring together a group of people and start developing a strategy...
Quite hard if you actually expect them to hammer out the best possible solutions and not play politics.


Re the article...Labor can expect to win federal government back and talk about what they’ll do if elected, but we have a Liberal state government and they won’t be very cooperative.
I very much doubt the Marshall government will agree to AdeLINK, given it was a Labor plan., and especially given the control the our states federal senators seem to wield over our state Liberal party.

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Re: News & Discussion: Trams

#3889 Post by citywatcher » Thu Jan 03, 2019 12:14 am

rev wrote:
Patrick_27 wrote:
Wed Jan 02, 2019 11:39 pm
Mr Knoll said the authority should be up and running by the end of the year
By the end of the year? They've been in since March, how fucking hard is it to bring together a group of people and start developing a strategy...
Quite hard if you actually expect them to hammer out the best possible solutions and not play politics.


Re the article...Labor can expect to win federal government back and talk about what they’ll do if elected, but we have a Liberal state government and they won’t be very cooperative.
I very much doubt the Marshall government will agree to AdeLINK, given it was a Labor plan., and especially given the control the our states federal senators seem to wield over our state Liberal party.
Yes but they are playing politics and are not interested in solutions

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Re: News & Discussion: Trams

#3890 Post by rubberman » Thu Jan 03, 2019 8:55 am

rev wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 12:01 am
Patrick_27 wrote:
Wed Jan 02, 2019 11:39 pm
Mr Knoll said the authority should be up and running by the end of the year
By the end of the year? They've been in since March, how fucking hard is it to bring together a group of people and start developing a strategy...
Quite hard if you actually expect them to hammer out the best possible solutions and not play politics.


Re the article...Labor can expect to win federal government back and talk about what they’ll do if elected, but we have a Liberal state government and they won’t be very cooperative.
I very much doubt the Marshall government will agree to AdeLINK, given it was a Labor plan., and especially given the control the our states federal senators seem to wield over our state Liberal party.
I'd see it playing out with nothing happening during Labor's first Federal term. The Liberals in SA, aren't interested in trams. Further, I think Labor needs to get a bit of distance from the public service, as previous extensions and tram purchases have not been optimal. A few years in Opposition will help in that regard.

However, in 2022, both Federal and State Governments are up for re-election early in the year. A coordinated State/Federal tram proposal would be a very efficient tactic for both elections for Labor.

If we are ever going to see an expanded system, that's likely to be the time. If it doesn't happen then, it likely never will.

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Re: News & Discussion: Trams

#3891 Post by SRW » Thu Jan 03, 2019 9:12 am

If the Commonwealth is willing to stump up money, SA would be stupid not to take it. We'd be unlikely to see the full AdeLink network built before 2022 anyway, but the state Libs might be persuaded to get the city loop and North Adelaide (or at a stretch, maybe airport) done or at least started. Then we'll see who's vision wins government beyond then.
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Re: News & Discussion: Trams

#3892 Post by adelaide transport » Thu Jan 03, 2019 9:43 am

Patrick_27 wrote:
Wed Jan 02, 2019 11:39 pm
Mr Knoll said the authority should be up and running by the end of the year


By the end of the year? They've been in since March, how fucking hard is it to bring together a group of people and start developing a strategy...


When are we going to get a capable CEO to set up and run this new SAPTA.

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Re: News & Discussion: Trams

#3893 Post by Eurostar » Thu Jan 03, 2019 9:44 am

Governments should be working on eliminating some tramway level crossings with tram overpass or underpass, for example
Greenhill Road, Goodwood Road, Marion Road, Cross Road.

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Re: News & Discussion: Trams

#3894 Post by rubberman » Thu Jan 03, 2019 10:28 am

SRW wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 9:12 am
If the Commonwealth is willing to stump up money, SA would be stupid not to take it. We'd be unlikely to see the full AdeLink network built before 2022 anyway, but the state Libs might be persuaded to get the city loop and North Adelaide (or at a stretch, maybe airport) done or at least started. Then we'll see who's vision wins government beyond then.
Historically, what has happened, and it's been a vote winner, is for Labor to suggest something (Trams to Modbury, NBN, no right turn on North Terrace), and for the Liberals to come up with some alternative and say they can do it "cheaper, faster, better...better economic managers...mumble...something.debt'ndeficit..mumble". As a political strategy, it's worked every single time. In the case of the O-Bahn vs trams to Modbury, it worked in practice too! (Not so much for NBN or tram right turn on Nth Tce).

So, if Labor came up with the money, the Liberals, on past performance, will point to how the Federal Government is wasteful, and how it could be cheaper, faster, better with a trackless tram, monorail or some other gadget bahn.

However, if State and Federal Labor actually work together, (Haha, yes, I know I'm dreaming) :lol: then Federal Labor can say No Money for Proprietary Gadgetbahns. In that case, it would be clear that a Liberal "cheaper, faster, better" ploy wasn't feasible. Still, even though it was clear that Malcolm Turnbull's NBN couldn't possibly be cheaper, nor faster, nor better, voters still drank the Kool-Ade. Point being you might think voters would be mad to refuse Federal funding for trams...well they voted for Malcolm Turnbull's NBN. I rest my case.

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Re: News & Discussion: Trams

#3895 Post by PeFe » Thu Jan 03, 2019 12:23 pm

Eurostar wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 9:44 am
Governments should be working on eliminating some tramway level crossings with tram overpass or underpass, for example
Greenhill Road, Goodwood Road, Marion Road, Cross Road.
Marion and Cross Road intersections should be done at the same time. Traffic along Marion road is continually interrupted by the tram and maybe even the next stop south of Cross Road can be eliminated.

An overpass (over both roads) is probably the most practical solution.

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Re: News & Discussion: Trams

#3896 Post by Spurdo » Thu Jan 03, 2019 12:58 pm

Do we really need to have that many tram lines though? Just look how the last extension went, over 100 million for less than a kilometre of track and plagued by defects, plus would anyone other than inner-city yuppie urbanists take a tram all the way to outer harbour when there is a train that could do the trip quicker by about 3 times. Personally, I think we should work on completing south road and electrifying the rail network/getting actual modern trains before starting any more tram extensions.

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Re: News & Discussion: Trams

#3897 Post by claybro » Thu Jan 03, 2019 1:46 pm

Spurdo wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 12:58 pm
Do we really need to have that many tram lines though? Just look how the last extension went, over 100 million for less than a kilometre of track and plagued by defects, plus would anyone other than inner-city yuppie urbanists take a tram all the way to outer harbour when there is a train that could do the trip quicker by about 3 times. Personally, I think we should work on completing south road and electrifying the rail network/getting actual modern trains before starting any more tram extensions.
If Adelaide is to achieve decent urban consolidation and connection of the inner suburbs, trams/light rail will definitely be needed. Agree though the last extension became a joke, and was a bad advertisement for how to roll it out. Light rail construction, continuing electrification and motorway progress should not be mutually exclusive. Adelaide is starting to grow faster than most people over there realise (it is very noticeable from my infrequent visits) and you will wake up in 20 years time with potentially an extra 250000-300000 people, in increasingly dense suburbs. Problem is until now, it all seems a bit ad hock, both in transport and housing. The Feds are literally begging to throw money at the states for PT...its just up to SA, both Labor and Libs to get their act together with proper population targets, and urban consolidation projects to make these things fundable from a federal point of view, and viable.

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Re: News & Discussion: Trams

#3898 Post by rubberman » Thu Jan 03, 2019 2:44 pm

Spurdo wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 12:58 pm
Do we really need to have that many tram lines though? Just look how the last extension went, over 100 million for less than a kilometre of track and plagued by defects, plus would anyone other than inner-city yuppie urbanists take a tram all the way to outer harbour when there is a train that could do the trip quicker by about 3 times. Personally, I think we should work on completing south road and electrifying the rail network/getting actual modern trains before starting any more tram extensions.

I understand your concerns. It's what I was getting at when I made my comment.

A big concern in Australia is the huge cost in infrastructure projects. For example, tunneling in Melbourne for the East West motorway was about double what the Swiss can tunnel through the Alps for...in bigger tunnels. The Swiss extended a line in Zurich for about half of what we did in Adelaide per kM, and a quarter of the Sydney debacle. Switzerland is a higher cost country, so we should have been able to do that North Terrace extension at half the cost, or less. Similarly, trams like the Citadis can be bought for about half the price. They are an el cheapo design. We paid more overall for the Citadises than if we'd gotten a top-of-the-line Škoda 15T.

Further, European cities also use buses and trams on the same alignment when it won't disrupt the trams. That provides a big benefit, and acceptance by motorists and motoring organisations like the RAA. SA designed the extension to the Entertainment Centre so buses couldn't even use the lane, even if the trams were not running and substitute buses are required.

What this means is that tram extensions which could and should be economically viable if constructed and operated with European best practice, are marginal at best, and don't fully maximise the use of the asset. At which time people such as yourself can rightly object to spending the money. In that, I guess my position is this: unless the government gets its act together, and gets costs down, I'm not interested in uneconomic slow trams. Speed them up, and get costs down, and I'll vote accordingly.

Edit. I'm not sure how a train could do that trip in a third the time. Using typical acceleration and speeds for trams and trains, you'd have to have an average station spacing of 3km even to keep up with trams. To do that, you'd also need some pretty power hungry and heavy electric railcars. And that's for break-even on schedule timing. To really make heavy rail work, you might need to average 4km between stops to allow railcars to get up to 90kph and cruise a bit. Otherwise, the economics means trams are cheaper. Trying to run heavy railcars shrt distances between stops makes no sense. Even if you get the speed up, trams can still outsprint at short distances annd are way cheaper.

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Re: News & Discussion: Trams

#3899 Post by SBD » Thu Jan 03, 2019 3:10 pm

claybro wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 1:46 pm
Spurdo wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 12:58 pm
Do we really need to have that many tram lines though? Just look how the last extension went, over 100 million for less than a kilometre of track and plagued by defects, plus would anyone other than inner-city yuppie urbanists take a tram all the way to outer harbour when there is a train that could do the trip quicker by about 3 times. Personally, I think we should work on completing south road and electrifying the rail network/getting actual modern trains before starting any more tram extensions.
If Adelaide is to achieve decent urban consolidation and connection of the inner suburbs, trams/light rail will definitely be needed. Agree though the last extension became a joke, and was a bad advertisement for how to roll it out. Light rail construction, continuing electrification and motorway progress should not be mutually exclusive. Adelaide is starting to grow faster than most people over there realise (it is very noticeable from my infrequent visits) and you will wake up in 20 years time with potentially an extra 250000-300000 people, in increasingly dense suburbs. Problem is until now, it all seems a bit ad hock, both in transport and housing. The Feds are literally begging to throw money at the states for PT...its just up to SA, both Labor and Libs to get their act together with proper population targets, and urban consolidation projects to make these things fundable from a federal point of view, and viable.
Is the only conceivable growth path for SA to move more people into higher density living and working in inner Adelaide?

Would the optimal transport strategy look different if we had a goal of five or six hubs in the Greater Adelaide area, and a further five cities over two hours (surface transport) from Adelaide?

Instead of expecting everyone to work in the Adelaide CBD and optimise by making it possible for them to live closer, are there models of successful cities/states with multiple centres?

For example, instead of imagining everybody wants to live and work in the same place, perhaps have hubs at
  • Adelaide
  • Port Adelaide
  • Elizabeth/Playford
  • Modbury
  • Marion/Flinders
Each with their own local transport system (buses or trams) and faster rail connections to join them together when we want to move between them.

Then, further out, have significant cities at perhaps
  • Mount Gambier
  • Whyalla
  • Port Lincoln
  • Riverland
  • Murray Bridge
Each could have its own light rail/trams between residential, retail, commercial, industrial precincts within the city.

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Re: News & Discussion: Trams

#3900 Post by how good is he » Thu Jan 03, 2019 3:15 pm

I would expect the Fed labour Govt to propose a deal that they will offer 50% of the cost with the state Lib Govt to chip in the rest if they want it. The question is how much and how long to do it all. My guess is the whole AdeLINK network would cost over $1-$2bn and take 10-20 years. I think Turnbull (Fed libs) before being ousted was going to give a $185m AdeLINK allowance if matched by the state govt. So a drip feed of 4 -5 stages over many years which I expect the Fed. Labour would probably do similar?

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