News & Discussion: Trams

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Re: News & Discussion: Trams

#4096 Post by rubberman » Sun Apr 14, 2019 10:19 am

ml69 wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 8:06 am
rubberman wrote:
Sat Apr 13, 2019 8:48 am
With the more exact wheel tracks used by guided buses, you'd expect that to be much worse unless the road was concrete, like the O-Bahn track. And there goes the biggest part of the cost advantage.
Biggest cost advantage? Are you saying laying down concrete on the road is the major cost of a tram system? I’d have thought the combined cost of doing the overhead track, tram control systems, doing the steel rails themselves would cost more (I’m excluding fleet purchase costs and station costs which both systems require).
Ah, let me clarify. In the comment I responded to, the implication was that because there was just something "painted" on the road, it was relatively cheap. Further, if you read the various promotions for these systems, they also imply that normal road construction is sufficient. In other words, a huge cost advantage to "trackless trams". So, while there may still be some cost advantage, the biggest one (ie, not much costly road reconstruction required) is nowhere near what the promoters claim.

The cost of reinforced concrete track with rails vs concrete bus pavement with a guidance system? Close, I'd say, but I'd be glad to have data.

The cost of a battery tram with steel wheels on rails, vs the same vehicle on rubber wheels, PLUS a guidance system on the "trackless tram" aligned to the one on the road? The guidance system on the tram is extra, and complex, so not cheap.

Advantage, conventional trams.

Power can be supplied to either system using overhead or battery/capacitors. If battery, the higher rolling resistance of tyres on pavement requires tougher batteries/higher capacity capacitors.

Advantage conventional trams.

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Re: News & Discussion: Trams

#4097 Post by PeFe » Wed Apr 17, 2019 8:47 am

Just noticed this article from the 'Tiser
Liberals accused of delays over promised Marion Rd tramline fix
On the eve of the 2016 Federal Election, Malcolm Turnbull and Nicolle Flint promised a $2 million study to fix Marin Rd near the tramline. But the report is still months away.

Proposed fixes to Marion Road that could have included an overpass over the tramline appear to be in the slow lane.

The plan was promised by Boothby MP Nicolle Flint and former Prime Minister Malcolm Turnbull five days ahead of the 2016 Federal Election.

It now appears the plans will not see the light of day until the middle of the year.

Mr Turnbull, who was photographed in Boothby with Ms Flint at the time, committed $2 million to “undertake planning for the upgrade of Marion Rd” near the tramline.

Options on the table included turning part of Marion Rd into an underpass that would stretch from before the tramline to after Cross Rd, putting Marion Rd under the tramline, Cross Rd, and Anzac Highway; or a tram overpass above Marion and Cross roads.

A year later the State’s Transport Department said work on the planning would begin within months and was expected to be completed by early 2018.

Plans are now not expected to be completed until the middle of this year – three years after being first announced.

State Opposition Tom Koutsantonis said the Coalition kept hanging its tune of Marion Rd and voters should be sceptical of any infrastructure promises from here.

A Liberal Party campaign spokeswoman said the study was being fully funded by the Morrison Government, would be finalised in the first half of 2019, would be delivered by the Department of Planning, Transport and Infrastructure.

He said it was one of a number of “important transport infrastructure related investments” the Government and Boothby MP Nicolle Flint were committed to delivering.

https://www.news.com.au/national/south- ... f4add794a9

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Re: News & Discussion: Trams

#4098 Post by ChillyPhilly » Wed Apr 17, 2019 9:05 am

PeFe wrote:Just noticed this article from the 'Tiser
Liberals accused of delays over promised Marion Rd tramline fix
On the eve of the 2016 Federal Election, Malcolm Turnbull and Nicolle Flint promised a $2 million study to fix Marin Rd near the tramline. But the report is still months away.

Proposed fixes to Marion Road that could have included an overpass over the tramline appear to be in the slow lane.

The plan was promised by Boothby MP Nicolle Flint and former Prime Minister Malcolm Turnbull five days ahead of the 2016 Federal Election.

It now appears the plans will not see the light of day until the middle of the year.

Mr Turnbull, who was photographed in Boothby with Ms Flint at the time, committed $2 million to “undertake planning for the upgrade of Marion Rd” near the tramline.

Options on the table included turning part of Marion Rd into an underpass that would stretch from before the tramline to after Cross Rd, putting Marion Rd under the tramline, Cross Rd, and Anzac Highway; or a tram overpass above Marion and Cross roads.

A year later the State’s Transport Department said work on the planning would begin within months and was expected to be completed by early 2018.

Plans are now not expected to be completed until the middle of this year – three years after being first announced.

State Opposition Tom Koutsantonis said the Coalition kept hanging its tune of Marion Rd and voters should be sceptical of any infrastructure promises from here.

A Liberal Party campaign spokeswoman said the study was being fully funded by the Morrison Government, would be finalised in the first half of 2019, would be delivered by the Department of Planning, Transport and Infrastructure.

He said it was one of a number of “important transport infrastructure related investments” the Government and Boothby MP Nicolle Flint were committed to delivering.

https://www.news.com.au/national/south- ... f4add794a9
Probably been shelved with the money going towards the excessive intersection upgrades along Portrush Road.
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Re: News & Discussion: Trams

#4099 Post by SBD » Wed Apr 17, 2019 1:29 pm

PeFe wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 8:47 am
Just noticed this article from the 'Tiser
Liberals accused of delays over promised Marion Rd tramline fix
On the eve of the 2016 Federal Election, Malcolm Turnbull and Nicolle Flint promised a $2 million study to fix Marin Rd near the tramline. But the report is still months away.

Proposed fixes to Marion Road that could have included an overpass over the tramline appear to be in the slow lane.

The plan was promised by Boothby MP Nicolle Flint and former Prime Minister Malcolm Turnbull five days ahead of the 2016 Federal Election.

It now appears the plans will not see the light of day until the middle of the year.

Mr Turnbull, who was photographed in Boothby with Ms Flint at the time, committed $2 million to “undertake planning for the upgrade of Marion Rd” near the tramline.

Options on the table included turning part of Marion Rd into an underpass that would stretch from before the tramline to after Cross Rd, putting Marion Rd under the tramline, Cross Rd, and Anzac Highway; or a tram overpass above Marion and Cross roads.

A year later the State’s Transport Department said work on the planning would begin within months and was expected to be completed by early 2018.

Plans are now not expected to be completed until the middle of this year – three years after being first announced.

State Opposition Tom Koutsantonis said the Coalition kept hanging its tune of Marion Rd and voters should be sceptical of any infrastructure promises from here.

A Liberal Party campaign spokeswoman said the study was being fully funded by the Morrison Government, would be finalised in the first half of 2019, would be delivered by the Department of Planning, Transport and Infrastructure.

He said it was one of a number of “important transport infrastructure related investments” the Government and Boothby MP Nicolle Flint were committed to delivering.

https://www.news.com.au/national/south- ... f4add794a9
So in June 2016, the federal government promised money. "A year later" (June 2017?) , the "State’s Transport Department" (DPTI?) said planning would start soon to be finished by early 2018. Koutsantonis got voted out of government in March 2018, and now it's the Liberals' fault that the plan isn't finished yet. It doesn't seem to be only Liberal credibility on display. It sounds like Labor had an opportunity to provide a direct followon tram project when they promised the North Terrace extension would have been finished in March 2018, so there was no "tram valley of death".

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Re: News & Discussion: Trams

#4100 Post by Westside » Thu Apr 18, 2019 12:29 pm

SBD wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 1:29 pm
So in June 2016, the federal government promised money. "A year later" (June 2017?) , the "State’s Transport Department" (DPTI?) said planning would start soon to be finished by early 2018. Koutsantonis got voted out of government in March 2018, and now it's the Liberals' fault that the plan isn't finished yet. It doesn't seem to be only Liberal credibility on display. It sounds like Labor had an opportunity to provide a direct followon tram project when they promised the North Terrace extension would have been finished in March 2018, so there was no "tram valley of death".
Welcome to a Liberal Government, also known as a "public transport valley of death" (Malcolm being the exception to the rule).

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Re: News & Discussion: Trams

#4101 Post by SBD » Thu Apr 18, 2019 12:51 pm

Westside wrote:
Thu Apr 18, 2019 12:29 pm
SBD wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 1:29 pm
So in June 2016, the federal government promised money. "A year later" (June 2017?) , the "State’s Transport Department" (DPTI?) said planning would start soon to be finished by early 2018. Koutsantonis got voted out of government in March 2018, and now it's the Liberals' fault that the plan isn't finished yet. It doesn't seem to be only Liberal credibility on display. It sounds like Labor had an opportunity to provide a direct followon tram project when they promised the North Terrace extension would have been finished in March 2018, so there was no "tram valley of death".
Welcome to a Liberal Government, also known as a "public transport valley of death" (Malcolm being the exception to the rule).
Didn't the article say that Liberal governments are making the DPTI do what the ALP government just issued press releases about? "Plans are now not expected to be completed until the middle of this year – three years after being first announced." means the state government will have been Liberal for 15 of the 36 months since it was announced. Why didn't Labor have it all lined up to start as work ramped down on North Terrace in February-March last year?

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Re: News & Discussion: Trams

#4102 Post by rubberman » Thu Apr 18, 2019 1:12 pm

SBD wrote:
Thu Apr 18, 2019 12:51 pm
Westside wrote:
Thu Apr 18, 2019 12:29 pm
SBD wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 1:29 pm
So in June 2016, the federal government promised money. "A year later" (June 2017?) , the "State’s Transport Department" (DPTI?) said planning would start soon to be finished by early 2018. Koutsantonis got voted out of government in March 2018, and now it's the Liberals' fault that the plan isn't finished yet. It doesn't seem to be only Liberal credibility on display. It sounds like Labor had an opportunity to provide a direct followon tram project when they promised the North Terrace extension would have been finished in March 2018, so there was no "tram valley of death".
Welcome to a Liberal Government, also known as a "public transport valley of death" (Malcolm being the exception to the rule).
Didn't the article say that Liberal governments are making the DPTI do what the ALP government just issued press releases about? "Plans are now not expected to be completed until the middle of this year – three years after being first announced." means the state government will have been Liberal for 15 of the 36 months since it was announced. Why didn't Labor have it all lined up to start as work ramped down on North Terrace in February-March last year?
Looking at the article, this is an overpass over the tramline, not a tram project per se. Shouldn't this be in a road discussion forum, rather than a tram one?

As for why the previous government didn't plan it sooner? It depends on where particular projects are on the forward works program. Usually governments (of all political persuasions) have forward works programs stretching to four years and beyond. There's simply not enough resourcing to do every job at once. It's not particularly sinister if jobs aren't started straight away. So, you also have to look at priorities. Maybe a bridge over the tramline was a lower priority than something else? If we knew what other projects were given higher priority, it would be easier to debate. We also don't know when the money from the Feds arrived either. Many of the projects recently announced in the Federal budget might not be funded for years. So, it's not the time from the announcement that matters, it's the time from when SA got the cash. If SA didn't get the cash, it would hardly surprise anyone if the planning didn't start.

This is a cross-party issue, not confined to any one party.

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Re: News & Discussion: Trams

#4103 Post by Bob » Fri Apr 19, 2019 1:36 pm

A rumour circulating during the week suggests that Adelaide will likely go ahead and bid for the 2026 Commonwealth Games. As the host city will be decided in September this year by the committee, and Adelaide is the preferred candidate already, we have to assume there is now a real chance of being successful.

That leads to the second part of the rumour that Steven Marshall wants the tram extended at least past the Adelaide Oval, as we already know that will require bridge modifications over the River Torrens, however additional funding would be allocated to Adelaide from Federal coffers to assist in getting Adelaide’s infrastructure ‘games ready’. Some of that might / could go towards this next stage of tram extension, even if it’s only another 500m.

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Re: News & Discussion: Trams

#4104 Post by rubberman » Fri Apr 19, 2019 2:19 pm

Bob wrote:
Fri Apr 19, 2019 1:36 pm
A rumour circulating during the week suggests that Adelaide will likely go ahead and bid for the 2026 Commonwealth Games. As the host city will be decided in September this year by the committee, and Adelaide is the preferred candidate already, we have to assume there is now a real chance of being successful.

That leads to the second part of the rumour that Steven Marshall wants the tram extended at least past the Adelaide Oval, as we already know that will require bridge modifications over the River Torrens, however additional funding would be allocated to Adelaide from Federal coffers to assist in getting Adelaide’s infrastructure ‘games ready’. Some of that might / could go towards this next stage of tram extension, even if it’s only another 500m.
Why does the bridge need upgrading? It was designed to carry trams, and did so up to the late 1950s. Similar bridges in Melbourne designed to similar standards carry newer trams without a problem.

My guess is that DPTI probably had an error somewhere in their calculations...OR...the bridge has a structural problem, and needs replacing like the Bakewell Bridge and the Port Road bridge. That's important to find out, because if the whole bridge needs replacing, then that's a far bigger and longer job than putting tracks back in.

In respect of the C'wealth Games, assuming Brexit hasn't caused the UK to implode, I wonder if the former Victoria Park racecourse area also would be used for some events. If so, the Eastern part of the Citylink might be a goer too.

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Re: News & Discussion: Trams

#4105 Post by NTRabbit » Fri Apr 19, 2019 5:05 pm

Bob wrote:
Fri Apr 19, 2019 1:36 pm
A rumour circulating during the week suggests that Adelaide will likely go ahead and bid for the 2026 Commonwealth Games. As the host city will be decided in September this year by the committee, and Adelaide is the preferred candidate already, we have to assume there is now a real chance of being successful.

That leads to the second part of the rumour that Steven Marshall wants the tram extended at least past the Adelaide Oval, as we already know that will require bridge modifications over the River Torrens, however additional funding would be allocated to Adelaide from Federal coffers to assist in getting Adelaide’s infrastructure ‘games ready’. Some of that might / could go towards this next stage of tram extension, even if it’s only another 500m.
That rumour contradicts earlier reports saying that the tram extension to North Adelaide had already been paid for by the Turnbull government, and that Marshall tried and failed to reallocate the money because he does not want to extend the tram any further.

I don't doubt we'd get some federal funds to help if we won the bid, but the rest of it sounds like some SA Libs revisionist history and spin.

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Re: News & Discussion: Trams

#4106 Post by Waewick » Fri Apr 19, 2019 5:41 pm

NTRabbit wrote:
Bob wrote:
Fri Apr 19, 2019 1:36 pm
A rumour circulating during the week suggests that Adelaide will likely go ahead and bid for the 2026 Commonwealth Games. As the host city will be decided in September this year by the committee, and Adelaide is the preferred candidate already, we have to assume there is now a real chance of being successful.

That leads to the second part of the rumour that Steven Marshall wants the tram extended at least past the Adelaide Oval, as we already know that will require bridge modifications over the River Torrens, however additional funding would be allocated to Adelaide from Federal coffers to assist in getting Adelaide’s infrastructure ‘games ready’. Some of that might / could go towards this next stage of tram extension, even if it’s only another 500m.
That rumour contradicts earlier reports saying that the tram extension to North Adelaide had already been paid for by the Turnbull government, and that Marshall tried and failed to reallocate the money because he does not want to extend the tram any further.

I don't doubt we'd get some federal funds to help if we won the bid, but the rest of it sounds like some SA Libs revisionist history and spin.
If they win the commonwealth games, they'll get funding, end of story.


As for your rumour, perhaps its just Labor spin which is lapped up by the red faithful.

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Re: News & Discussion: Trams

#4107 Post by NTRabbit » Fri Apr 19, 2019 7:00 pm

Waewick wrote:
Fri Apr 19, 2019 5:41 pm
NTRabbit wrote:
Bob wrote:
Fri Apr 19, 2019 1:36 pm
A rumour circulating during the week suggests that Adelaide will likely go ahead and bid for the 2026 Commonwealth Games. As the host city will be decided in September this year by the committee, and Adelaide is the preferred candidate already, we have to assume there is now a real chance of being successful.

That leads to the second part of the rumour that Steven Marshall wants the tram extended at least past the Adelaide Oval, as we already know that will require bridge modifications over the River Torrens, however additional funding would be allocated to Adelaide from Federal coffers to assist in getting Adelaide’s infrastructure ‘games ready’. Some of that might / could go towards this next stage of tram extension, even if it’s only another 500m.
That rumour contradicts earlier reports saying that the tram extension to North Adelaide had already been paid for by the Turnbull government, and that Marshall tried and failed to reallocate the money because he does not want to extend the tram any further.

I don't doubt we'd get some federal funds to help if we won the bid, but the rest of it sounds like some SA Libs revisionist history and spin.
If they win the commonwealth games, they'll get funding, end of story.


As for your rumour, perhaps its just Labor spin which is lapped up by the red faithful.
It's not about the money, it's about what they plan to do with it once they get it, and while I'm not a Labor red faithful, only the king of the fools would have any faith at all in the shambling pack of underachieving morons that constitute the SA branch of the Liberal party. They couldn't even manage the AO hotel graft without it ending in an inquiry, and that's small potatoes.

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Re: News & Discussion: Trams

#4108 Post by Eurostar » Fri Apr 19, 2019 7:58 pm

I predict SA Labor once voted back in will build tramway to Prospect Road (Kilburn). The G10 buses north of city are well used. Replacing g10 bus service with a tram service will free up buses for other areas. I also reckon we will get see a proposal for a Emerson to Tollgate tunnel project

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Re: News & Discussion: Trams

#4109 Post by Patrick_27 » Sat Apr 20, 2019 2:08 am

Eurostar wrote:
Fri Apr 19, 2019 7:58 pm
I also reckon we will get see a proposal for a Emerson to Tollgate tunnel project
Before or after they finish the five years (minimum) of construction for the remainder of South Road? Pipe dreams, mate.

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Re: News & Discussion: Trams

#4110 Post by Bob » Sat Apr 20, 2019 8:18 am

I got the information third hand from a source who was present when Steven Marshall made the comment along the lines of ‘its makes sense to extend the tram to Adelaide Oval’. I am just the messenger. As I did not hear it directly myself, I treat this as a 'rumour'.

I interpreted this as being in association with a successful CW games bid, but on reflection maybe this is to support the AO hotel? Crazy thought I know, but anything is possible in regards to the questionable dealings in regards to the AO hotel.

There is a lot of speculation floating around recently in regards to the tram extension north, either to AO or to NA, I would not be surprised if we see some sort of infrastructure position statement by the end of 2019 on what the long term plan is regarding this route. We will have to wait and see. Originally I did think we would have to wait until the last year of the Liberal Party term to get an announcement, but I think something may be coming sooner now, however that is just my gut feel.

I also wouldn’t be surprised if information is being trickled out to test the waters, as the tram extension is one of the Top 10 infrastructure projects being reviewed this year by the new Infrastructure SA team. Who knows how far that process is advanced? Anyone's guess, but the CW games bid would have added urgency into the review I would have thought. If you want Federal funding under the CW games proviso, best to have your infrastructure required plans up to speed when you put your final bid forward, I would have thought.

Lets see what happens.

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