News & Discussion: Trams

Threads relating to transport, water, etc. within the CBD and Metropolitan area.
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claybro
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Re: News & Discussion: Trams

#4186 Post by claybro » Mon Jul 01, 2019 10:58 am

rubberman wrote:
Sun Jun 30, 2019 10:57 pm
Now, of course, if the number of stations on the Grange line were to be reduced so that the average speeds got up to say, 70kph, and shave 10 mins of the schedule, that would be entirely different. That sort of saving could induce switching from cars to trains. I say that because the latest congestion report from the RAA shows car average speeds of 55+ kph. At the moment, the train is 35kph plus walking. Get to 70kph by train,and maybe there's a chance. If the present station spacing is sacrosanct, then modern trams can do the same job if run correctly and are cheaper. Either better (and eliminate stations) or cheaper (and run trams). One or the other.
This is the problem though isn't it?. Many of those advocating retention of heavy rail for all existing corridors want trains capable of 130km/h, running on tracks with all existing stations left in place, which spacing then limits those same expensive trains to around 70- 80km/h top speed. But then some also want light rail radiating from the heavy rail stations, so more destinations can still be served by rail. It is definitely an either or, and at present, the cost of heavy rail particularly when small sets of separate rolling stock have to be purchased makes Grange and Belair vulnerable to closure.

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Re: News & Discussion: Trams

#4187 Post by Eurostar » Mon Jul 01, 2019 11:39 am

claybro wrote:
Mon Jul 01, 2019 10:58 am
rubberman wrote:
Sun Jun 30, 2019 10:57 pm
Now, of course, if the number of stations on the Grange line were to be reduced so that the average speeds got up to say, 70kph, and shave 10 mins of the schedule, that would be entirely different. That sort of saving could induce switching from cars to trains. I say that because the latest congestion report from the RAA shows car average speeds of 55+ kph. At the moment, the train is 35kph plus walking. Get to 70kph by train,and maybe there's a chance. If the present station spacing is sacrosanct, then modern trams can do the same job if run correctly and are cheaper. Either better (and eliminate stations) or cheaper (and run trams). One or the other.
This is the problem though isn't it?. Many of those advocating retention of heavy rail for all existing corridors want trains capable of 130km/h, running on tracks with all existing stations left in place, which spacing then limits those same expensive trains to around 70- 80km/h top speed. But then some also want light rail radiating from the heavy rail stations, so more destinations can still be served by rail. It is definitely an either or, and at present, the cost of heavy rail particularly when small sets of separate rolling stock have to be purchased makes Grange and Belair vulnerable to closure.
Grange branch could be replaced by bus, even better as it can run via QEH providing Grange and Seaton residents a direct link with QEH.

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Re: News & Discussion: Trams

#4188 Post by Westside » Mon Jul 01, 2019 12:53 pm

Given the indirect nature of the train line (heading northeast, before heading southeast), and the fact that it doesn't follow main roads means any bus replacement, even an express one, will suffer a slower passenger journey. So it wouldn't be an easy fix to simply replace with a bus. Not impossible, but certainly not as simple as introducing a single half-hourly bus replacement.

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Re: News & Discussion: Trams

#4189 Post by d3v310per » Mon Jul 01, 2019 1:13 pm

From In Daily...... https://indaily.com.au/news/2019/07/01/ ... rivatised/

Adelaide's train and tram services to be privatised

The State Government will seek a private operator for Adelaide’s public train and tram services.

Transport Minister Stephan Knoll said the Government would tender out Adelaide Metro tram and train services, in the same way as public bus services have operated since 2000.

He said the State Government would retain control of services, including ownership of rail assets such as trains, trams and stations, but outsource the operations.

The Government would enter into a “performance-based franchise contract that keeps the operator focussed firmly on the efficiency and quality of service delivery to customers”.

Knoll said the Government would ensure that “the existing frontline workforce will be provided with the greatest level of opportunity for ongoing work”.

He also argued that the Government would be able to deliver more efficient services under the new model, which would allow funds to be reinvested in public transport.

“That’s why the State Government can guarantee maintaining the same service frequency levels and standards and expect an increase in service levels once this model is fully implemented,” he said.

“The State Government will still own and control the assets, control fare prices and set service level requirements – in the same way we do for Adelaide Metro buses.”

Knoll told a media conference today that he wanted to seek out the best operators of public transport from around the world.

“The global expertise… will save money that we can invest in better public transport services,” he said.

“The Government will maintain control over what happens: we will control the fares, we will control the frequency (of services). We won’t be selling anything.

“This is about delivering better public transport services… in a way that places right across the glove have been going.”

For months, Knoll has been prosecuting an argument that Adelaide’s public transport services are underperforming.

He released results of a customer survey today, taken late last year, which he said showed there was “a lot of room for improvement”.

However, the results show that commuters are more satisfied with train and tram services than with Adelaide’s buses.

The survey showed that 80 per cent of bus users expressed “overall satisfaction” with the service, compared to 87 per cent of train users and 91 per cent of tram users.

Knoll was asked repeatedly to address customer satisfaction with the bus system, but declined to address it directly.

“Overall with different parts of the network are between 80 and 90 per cent,” he said.

“Only half of our customers are happy with the value for money they’re getting.”

But he argued that privatised public transport operation had “worked successfully in Adelaide”, adding that after bus services were first privatised, patronage grew by 15 per cent.

He stressed that by commissioning a private contractor, the Government could better enforce key performance indicators.

Fare price hikes, job losses not ruled out
Knoll said the government would continue to set the fares, but did not rule out price hikes.

“It doesn’t always mean that the cheapest is the best, we will continue to control the fare box in Adelaide, but the opportunity of providing the quality of service … is the real key,” he said.

“When it comes to delivering value for money for out customers, price is important – we do actually have some of the cheapest public transport fares in the country – but we also need to provide a better service.

“But we will continue to set the fares … and we will make sure that we deliver that value proposition for South Australians.”

He said the government would keep prices “amongst the lowest in the country”.

Knoll also declined to rule out job losses, but said the Government expected the majority of public workers to transition into working for the private provider.

“The expectation is … where this operating model is put in place, the existing workforce is utilised first and foremost,” he said.

“There are existing provisions within the EB agreements that give government the opportunity to help redeloy and help re-train workers.

“The existing EB provisions will transition across, so workers won’t see a derogation of their union agreements.”

World’s “best operating model”
Knoll said he had spent the past several months travelling around the country and to Europe to see how other jurisdictions manage the best public transport systems.

“We have been working over the past months to look around the globe at what the best operating models are,” he said.

“It’s very clear that from London to Melbourne, this operating model is the one that has delivered the best operating model for people.

“Having visited Melbourne, Sydney, Canberra and Newcastle, as well as London, Manchester, Glasgow, Edinburgh – a whole series of places around the world, to look at how they operate their public transport systems.”

But Knoll said the Government wanted global expertise to help improve outcomes for commuters.

“We need to get the best operators of public transport systems around the world … to help improve our system,” he told the press conference.

“We need to bring that global expertise here to Adelaide.”

However, EdinburghLive reported last week that Glasgow railways operator ScotRail had received the highest number of complaints in six years.

Privatisation “A very significant betrayal”: Labor
Labor leader Peter Malinauskas slammed the move as “a very significant betrayal”, noting Steven Marshall’s pre-election pledge claim that “he didn’t have a privatisation agenda”.

“They’ve certainly got one now,” he said.

“It’s clear now that there is a substantial privatisation agenda [and] the privatisation of the train and tram network will mean that public transport is less about people and all about profit.”

The Opposition Leader wouldn’t commit to returning the fleet to public hands if elected, saying “we’re still digesting this announcement”, but insisted “the focus now is squarely on what possible justification does the Government have for this”.

“This is not consistent with anything they said before the election – they’re supposed to be delivering better services,” he said.

“This is a key public service that tens of thousands of people use every single day, and the quality of their service will inevitably be compromised through the profiteering of a private company.”

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Re: News & Discussion: Trams

#4190 Post by SRW » Mon Jul 01, 2019 1:14 pm

Main discussion over here: viewtopic.php?f=9&t=2895&start=1815
Keep Adelaide Weird

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Re: News & Discussion: Trams

#4191 Post by NTRabbit » Mon Jul 01, 2019 7:02 pm

d3v310per wrote:
Mon Jul 01, 2019 1:13 pm
Knoll said the Government would ensure that “the existing frontline workforce will be provided with the greatest level of opportunity for ongoing work”.
The existing work force will get first go at having to apply for their old jobs on casual contracts at half the rate, magnanimous gesture.

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Re: News & Discussion: Trams

#4192 Post by gnrc_louis » Mon Jul 01, 2019 8:51 pm

Eurostar wrote:
Mon Jul 01, 2019 11:39 am
Grange branch could be replaced by bus, even better as it can run via QEH providing Grange and Seaton residents a direct link with QEH.
Lol because Grange and surrounds aren't already serviced by buses? :roll: Buses have the poorest satisfaction rating of any of the three modes of public transport in Adelaide and are generally slow and unreliable. If public transport uptake is going to dramatically increase in this city, it will be from rail - not more buses.

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Re: News & Discussion: Trams

#4193 Post by rubberman » Mon Jul 08, 2019 11:57 am

Given that the tramline will be out of action for three weeks in the CBD and down to the Entertainment Centre, will the government take the opportunity to grind out the noisy corrugations that have developed, and weld up the wear the Citadis have caused on various curves.

It would seem to be the perfect and cheapest opportunity.

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Re: News & Discussion: Trams

#4194 Post by [Shuz] » Mon Jul 08, 2019 4:15 pm

Hah. You should know by now, DPTI doesn’t operate on logic. Yes an opportunity exists and it would be cheaper, but they won’t do it.
Any views and opinions expressed are of my own, and do not reflect the views or opinions of any organisation of which I have an affiliation with.

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Re: News & Discussion: Trams

#4195 Post by Spotto » Mon Jul 08, 2019 5:15 pm

rubberman wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 11:57 am
Given that the tramline will be out of action for three weeks in the CBD and down to the Entertainment Centre, will the government take the opportunity to grind out the noisy corrugations that have developed, and weld up the wear the Citadis have caused on various curves.

It would seem to be the perfect and cheapest opportunity.
As someone unfamiliar with tram technicalities, what are the reasons for people’s hatred of the Citadis Trams?

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Re: News & Discussion: Trams

#4196 Post by rubberman » Mon Jul 08, 2019 6:53 pm

Spotto wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 5:15 pm
rubberman wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 11:57 am
Given that the tramline will be out of action for three weeks in the CBD and down to the Entertainment Centre, will the government take the opportunity to grind out the noisy corrugations that have developed, and weld up the wear the Citadis have caused on various curves.

It would seem to be the perfect and cheapest opportunity.
As someone unfamiliar with tram technicalities, what are the reasons for people’s hatred of the Citadis Trams?
I'm not sure if you are familiar with tram history. If not, have a look at the website of the Australian Electric Transport Museum. In it they show various of the old trams they have on display. Worth a look.

Now, there are a couple of broad groupings of tram bogies relevant here. The first, and oldest, termed "single truckers" have a fixed bogie, and when such a tram hits a curve, the whole tram moves, lurching left or right as the tram hits a curve. That track must withstand the whole force, concentrated in time, to force the whole body weight round. The second tram type, usually classified as a "bogie car" has swivelling bogies. When such a car enters a curve, it's only the weight of the bogie that initially is borne by the track. This leads to much less wear on the track.

In addition, on open ballast track which settles a little unevenly over the years, single truck cars can get a sway and bouncing motion up. This limits their maximum speed unless the track is perfect. Bogie cars have a much better tolerance of imperfect track.

As you might have guessed, Citadis are essentially single truck trams. They wear track out faster than bogie trams, and when track is imperfect, they are speed limited. Of course, if the Citadis are speed limited, then that limits the ability of timetable planners to speed up the service from Brighton Road to the City.

So, they slow the system down and wear out track much faster than other trams available.

Referring back to the tram museum web page, you might like to look for the museum's "Bib and Bub" cars. Essentially, this is what the Citadis are, but with a nice modern body. The essential physics stays the same. Nice styling does not trump the laws of physics.

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Re: News & Discussion: Trams

#4197 Post by Patrick_27 » Tue Jul 09, 2019 6:23 pm

rubberman wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 6:53 pm
Spotto wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 5:15 pm
rubberman wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 11:57 am
Given that the tramline will be out of action for three weeks in the CBD and down to the Entertainment Centre, will the government take the opportunity to grind out the noisy corrugations that have developed, and weld up the wear the Citadis have caused on various curves.

It would seem to be the perfect and cheapest opportunity.
As someone unfamiliar with tram technicalities, what are the reasons for people’s hatred of the Citadis Trams?
I'm not sure if you are familiar with tram history. If not, have a look at the website of the Australian Electric Transport Museum. In it they show various of the old trams they have on display. Worth a look.

Now, there are a couple of broad groupings of tram bogies relevant here. The first, and oldest, termed "single truckers" have a fixed bogie, and when such a tram hits a curve, the whole tram moves, lurching left or right as the tram hits a curve. That track must withstand the whole force, concentrated in time, to force the whole body weight round. The second tram type, usually classified as a "bogie car" has swivelling bogies. When such a car enters a curve, it's only the weight of the bogie that initially is borne by the track. This leads to much less wear on the track.

In addition, on open ballast track which settles a little unevenly over the years, single truck cars can get a sway and bouncing motion up. This limits their maximum speed unless the track is perfect. Bogie cars have a much better tolerance of imperfect track.

As you might have guessed, Citadis are essentially single truck trams. They wear track out faster than bogie trams, and when track is imperfect, they are speed limited. Of course, if the Citadis are speed limited, then that limits the ability of timetable planners to speed up the service from Brighton Road to the City.

So, they slow the system down and wear out track much faster than other trams available.

Referring back to the tram museum web page, you might like to look for the museum's "Bib and Bub" cars. Essentially, this is what the Citadis are, but with a nice modern body. The essential physics stays the same. Nice styling does not trump the laws of physics.
Thanks for this! I've had zero understanding of this as well. It's a shame that they have a negative impact on the tracks because for me the Citadis are a nicer, more spacious tram than the Bombardier.

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Re: News & Discussion: Trams

#4198 Post by Spotto » Tue Jul 09, 2019 6:45 pm

What’s going on with the trams tonight?

At Marion Road tram stop. Within the space of 5 minutes there’s been three city bound trams through the level crossing; two after each other, one (that I missed) just as I was pulling the car up after looping the side streets to park at the stop. Same story with three Glenelg-bound trams as well.

I know the city closure has affected the timetable, but the temporary timetable has trams listed every 10 minutes. I’m so confused.

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Re: News & Discussion: Trams

#4199 Post by adelaide transport » Tue Jul 09, 2019 7:03 pm

Actually in peak hours they operate every 5 minutes.

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Re: News & Discussion: Trams

#4200 Post by adelaide transport » Tue Jul 09, 2019 7:11 pm

Looking at the Public Transport app there were several trams running up to 23 minutes late.
The timetable is gradually being restored.
Obviously some major delays during the peak.

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