News & Discussion: Trams

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ChillyPhilly
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Re: News & Discussion: Trams

#4246 Post by ChillyPhilly » Fri Jul 19, 2019 12:57 am

SRW wrote:
Tue Jul 16, 2019 1:56 pm
Beyond fare hikes, privatisation and park-and-rides, it appears the Liberals have no plans for public transport infrastructure in this term with the possible exception of an O-Bahn 'extension' to Golden Grove (Gawler electrification is an ongoing project and doesn't count). Also no sign of them commencing investigations into an underground rail loop as promised before the election.
This State Government's approach to public transport is nothing short of disgusting. Their treatment of PT is just one reason of many that they are showing to vindicate their 16 years in the political wilderness. Send them back there. Vote them out.
Our state, our city, our future.

All views expressed on this forum are my own.

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Re: News & Discussion: Trams

#4247 Post by SBD » Fri Jul 19, 2019 1:09 pm

SRW wrote:
Thu Jul 18, 2019 3:54 pm
claybro wrote:
Thu Jul 18, 2019 2:05 pm
SRW wrote:
Thu Jul 18, 2019 1:18 pm

Not that it's a surprise if we revisit the way public transport was run down during their last time at the wheel 1993-2002.
A bit harsh. Wasn't it that government that finally retired the "red hens" and completed the 3000 series rollout? And there were more suburban rail closures during the Dunstan era than any since.
No, I think pretty mild if anything.

And, though I'm not interested in traipsing too far back in history, I'm not sure that's true regarding metro rail and Dunstan. That government twice extended the southern line. From memory, most closures and dismantlements occurred through the 80s and early 90s across the Tonkin, Bannon, Arnold and Brown governments - which, fair enough, includes Labor but also unsurprisingly coincides with the peak of the motor industry and expansion of the bus network. The Liberals not tearing up the 3000 series contract doesn't really add to their public transport credentials.
Timestamps from Wikipedia.
Closures:
  • Northfield line closed to passengers in May 1987 - halfway through Bannon's term as premier (Labor).
  • Dry Creek-Port Adelaide closed to passengers May 1988 (Bannon)
  • Belair-Bridgewater closed to passengers in July 1987 (Bannon), eight years before it was converted to standard gauge (Dean Brown, Liberal)
  • Hendon line (one station branch from Grange line) closed 1980 (Tonkin, Liberal)
  • Finsbury line closed 1979 (possibly Corcoran Labor, I didn't find a precise date)
  • Penfield line reduced 1984 (Bannon), closed 1991 (still Bannon)
  • Semaphore railway closed 1978 (Dunstan Labor)
Openings:
  • Hallett Cove Beach (1974 Dunstan)
  • Christie Downs (1976 Dunstan)
  • Noarlunga Centre (1978 Dunstan)
  • Seaford (2014 Weatherill)
  • Tram upgrade and extensions to City West them Entertainment Centre (Rann, Labor)
  • 2000-class railcars 1979-80 entered service under Tonkin, but probably ordered under Dunstan/Corcoran
  • 3000-class 1987-1996 (mostly Bannon/Arnold Labor)
it looks to me like blaming Liberal for closures is a bit rough except for Hendon which could have been extended to Football Park instead and close Grange, but now Football Park is gone too. The significant upgrades have been Labor though. I haven't looked into who was in government as various non-metro railways have been allowed to run down and stop as I suspect the decline has been gradual and both parties had a chance to stop it.

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Re: News & Discussion: Trams

#4248 Post by SRW » Fri Jul 19, 2019 1:32 pm

SBD wrote:
Fri Jul 19, 2019 1:09 pm
The significant upgrades have been Labor though.
This was my point. That rail was diminished through the 80s was a non-partisan product of the times. It sucks and was dumb, but the prevailing wisdom said motor was king. What matters is that we don't go entire terms of government without any investment in public transport, only to find ourselves back in the position of the naughties having to spend $2 billion on rail just to get it up to scratch. A couple park-and-rides and slight chance of an on road O-Bahn 'extension' don't really cut it for me, especially when cuts abound everywhere else. I'd like to hope that a transit mall in Grenfell/Currie might accompany O-Bahn upgrades in this term, but that would seem inimical to the noises the Liberals have made about amending ITULP and the council's Smart Move Strategy so that no mode of transport is disadvantaged (read: cars).
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Re: News & Discussion: Trams

#4249 Post by Joelmark » Sun Jul 21, 2019 7:12 pm

I think both sides should accept some responsibility for the state of the rail system until 2007-8, when the State Labor Government began to invest billions in the extension and electrification of both train and tram.
However, it does seem like the Liberals have been more consistently anti-rail - cutting funding to extensions (Port Dock 2019) canning tram extensions (Nth Adl /city coop 2019), closing stations (Millswood, Hawthorn, Clapham 1995) cancelling a "game-changer" light rail extension (Modbury LRT 1980), and effectively dismantling the entire tram system (late 1950s).
True, the Labor Government in the 1980s closed many of the rail lines listed in SBD's post above, but they were almost exclusively light industrial lines designed to shuffle workers to and from single use factories during the war (Hendon, Penfield etc.) - it's surprising they survived beyond the 1940s.
All the big stuff - Noarlunga extension (1970s), 2000 class railcars (1980), 3000 class railcars (1987-88 onwards), tram extensions (2007-17), rail electrification (2011 onwards), Seaford extension (2013), A-City 4000 class (2014) mass rail station upgrades (2008 onwards - Oaklands, Elizabeth, Munno Para, Showgrounds, Bowden, Croydon to name only several) have all been State Labor & Federal Labor built and funded.
One of the big reasons why the LRT was "downgraded" to the O-Bahn by the Tonkin Liberals was that not only was it a lot cheaper, but the conservative Adelaide City Council and North Adelaide residents didn't want ugly poles and wires being strung up for the route to reach Gilberton, particularly along King William St north and residential streets such as MacKinnon Parade, the preferred route.

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Re: News & Discussion: Trams

#4250 Post by Spotto » Sun Jul 21, 2019 7:24 pm

Joelmark wrote:
Sun Jul 21, 2019 7:12 pm
I think both sides should accept some responsibility for the state of the rail system until 2007-8, when the State Labor Government began to invest billions in the extension and electrification of both train and tram.
closing stations (Millswood, Hawthorn, Clapham 1995) cancelling a "game-changer" light rail extension (Modbury LRT 1980), and effectively dismantling the entire tram system (late 1950s).
I thought Millswood, Hawthorn and Clapham had to be closed due to timetabling conflicts from using a single track and not enough passing loops?

I don't think we can say the Libs are exclusively at fault for ripping up the tram network when cities around Australia and the world were also ripping up their networks to accommodate the explosive popularity of cars.

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Re: News & Discussion: Trams

#4251 Post by Patrick_27 » Mon Jul 22, 2019 3:27 am

SBD wrote:
Fri Jul 19, 2019 1:09 pm
SRW wrote:
Thu Jul 18, 2019 3:54 pm
claybro wrote:
Thu Jul 18, 2019 2:05 pm


A bit harsh. Wasn't it that government that finally retired the "red hens" and completed the 3000 series rollout? And there were more suburban rail closures during the Dunstan era than any since.
No, I think pretty mild if anything.

And, though I'm not interested in traipsing too far back in history, I'm not sure that's true regarding metro rail and Dunstan. That government twice extended the southern line. From memory, most closures and dismantlements occurred through the 80s and early 90s across the Tonkin, Bannon, Arnold and Brown governments - which, fair enough, includes Labor but also unsurprisingly coincides with the peak of the motor industry and expansion of the bus network. The Liberals not tearing up the 3000 series contract doesn't really add to their public transport credentials.
Timestamps from Wikipedia.
Closures:
  • Northfield line closed to passengers in May 1987 - halfway through Bannon's term as premier (Labor).
  • Dry Creek-Port Adelaide closed to passengers May 1988 (Bannon)
  • Belair-Bridgewater closed to passengers in July 1987 (Bannon), eight years before it was converted to standard gauge (Dean Brown, Liberal)
  • Hendon line (one station branch from Grange line) closed 1980 (Tonkin, Liberal)
  • Finsbury line closed 1979 (possibly Corcoran Labor, I didn't find a precise date)
  • Penfield line reduced 1984 (Bannon), closed 1991 (still Bannon)
  • Semaphore railway closed 1978 (Dunstan Labor)
Openings:
  • Hallett Cove Beach (1974 Dunstan)
  • Christie Downs (1976 Dunstan)
  • Noarlunga Centre (1978 Dunstan)
  • Seaford (2014 Weatherill)
  • Tram upgrade and extensions to City West them Entertainment Centre (Rann, Labor)
  • 2000-class railcars 1979-80 entered service under Tonkin, but probably ordered under Dunstan/Corcoran
  • 3000-class 1987-1996 (mostly Bannon/Arnold Labor)
it looks to me like blaming Liberal for closures is a bit rough except for Hendon which could have been extended to Football Park instead and close Grange, but now Football Park is gone too. The significant upgrades have been Labor though. I haven't looked into who was in government as various non-metro railways have been allowed to run down and stop as I suspect the decline has been gradual and both parties had a chance to stop it.
Yeah, but of those line closures, how many were really disruptive to the flow of the overall system? They weren't 'core' lines so to speak, merely token branch lines, like Grange almost. Of those mentioned, probably the only real loss was the Northfield Line because there was potential to extend it out to the north-eastern suburbs if the demand warranted it (a cheaper means to using the O-Bahn corridor for rail). Which with the Obahn at capacity, there might have been an argument for rail to the north eastern suburbs...

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Re: News & Discussion: Trams

#4252 Post by Patrick_27 » Mon Jul 22, 2019 3:30 am

Spotto wrote:
Sun Jul 21, 2019 7:24 pm
I thought Millswood, Hawthorn and Clapham had to be closed due to timetabling conflicts from using a single track and not enough passing loops?
Maybe, but they were part of a wider overhaul of underperforming stations along all lines. Shame really, because I think those three stations had more reason to exist than some of the other that remained open beyond 1995.

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Re: News & Discussion: Trams

#4253 Post by SBD » Mon Jul 22, 2019 8:38 am

Patrick_27 wrote:
Mon Jul 22, 2019 3:27 am
SBD wrote:
Fri Jul 19, 2019 1:09 pm
SRW wrote:
Thu Jul 18, 2019 3:54 pm

No, I think pretty mild if anything.

And, though I'm not interested in traipsing too far back in history, I'm not sure that's true regarding metro rail and Dunstan. That government twice extended the southern line. From memory, most closures and dismantlements occurred through the 80s and early 90s across the Tonkin, Bannon, Arnold and Brown governments - which, fair enough, includes Labor but also unsurprisingly coincides with the peak of the motor industry and expansion of the bus network. The Liberals not tearing up the 3000 series contract doesn't really add to their public transport credentials.
Timestamps from Wikipedia.
Closures:
  • Northfield line closed to passengers in May 1987 - halfway through Bannon's term as premier (Labor).
  • Dry Creek-Port Adelaide closed to passengers May 1988 (Bannon)
  • Belair-Bridgewater closed to passengers in July 1987 (Bannon), eight years before it was converted to standard gauge (Dean Brown, Liberal)
  • Hendon line (one station branch from Grange line) closed 1980 (Tonkin, Liberal)
  • Finsbury line closed 1979 (possibly Corcoran Labor, I didn't find a precise date)
  • Penfield line reduced 1984 (Bannon), closed 1991 (still Bannon)
  • Semaphore railway closed 1978 (Dunstan Labor)
Openings:
  • Hallett Cove Beach (1974 Dunstan)
  • Christie Downs (1976 Dunstan)
  • Noarlunga Centre (1978 Dunstan)
  • Seaford (2014 Weatherill)
  • Tram upgrade and extensions to City West them Entertainment Centre (Rann, Labor)
  • 2000-class railcars 1979-80 entered service under Tonkin, but probably ordered under Dunstan/Corcoran
  • 3000-class 1987-1996 (mostly Bannon/Arnold Labor)
it looks to me like blaming Liberal for closures is a bit rough except for Hendon which could have been extended to Football Park instead and close Grange, but now Football Park is gone too. The significant upgrades have been Labor though. I haven't looked into who was in government as various non-metro railways have been allowed to run down and stop as I suspect the decline has been gradual and both parties had a chance to stop it.
Yeah, but of those line closures, how many were really disruptive to the flow of the overall system? They weren't 'core' lines so to speak, merely token branch lines, like Grange almost. Of those mentioned, probably the only real loss was the Northfield Line because there was potential to extend it out to the north-eastern suburbs if the demand warranted it (a cheaper means to using the O-Bahn corridor for rail). Which with the Obahn at capacity, there might have been an argument for rail to the north eastern suburbs...
You can think of Grange and Tonsley as "token branch lines" to service industry that no longer exists, or as the basis of new development. Port Stanvac was a "token branch line" at one stage too, now it's the basis of the Seaford Line.

Penfield could have been extended north through Edinburgh and Edinburgh North (employment) and the corridor east of Stebonheath Road (residential Eyre, Davoren Park, Andrews Farm) then Munno Para West, Penfield Gardens, Angle Vale to Virginia for example.

Dry Creek to Port Adelaide could return to being a useful "shortcut" alternative to Port River Expressway for people living in Mawson Lakes and other northern suburbs to working in Port Adelaide, Osborne etc.

Hendon extended to Football Park instead of building West Lakes Boulevard having special bus lanes.

Finsbury services continuing to Port Dock might have made that station more interesting than a new spur with only one station.

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Re: News & Discussion: Trams

#4254 Post by timtam20292 » Tue Jul 23, 2019 4:08 pm

Saw a test tram at City South today.

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Re: News & Discussion: Trams

#4255 Post by Ho Really » Tue Jul 23, 2019 11:54 pm

timtam20292 wrote:
Tue Jul 23, 2019 4:08 pm
Saw a test tram at City South today.
Good the discussion is back on trams!

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Re: News & Discussion: Trams

#4256 Post by baytram366 » Wed Jul 24, 2019 9:33 am

It was back on the tram this morning for my trek to work. I actually liked the bus a bit better as it went straight from South Terrace to the Entertainment Centre without the need to change vehicles.
Apparently trams won't be stopping at the new City South platform until the end of the month though.

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Re: News & Discussion: Trams

#4257 Post by adelaide transport » Wed Jul 24, 2019 12:36 pm

I wonder if Adelaide Metro will ever consider running most ex Glenelg trams straight through to the Entertainment Centre, and Botanic Gardens trams only to RAH and return?

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Re: News & Discussion: Trams

#4258 Post by Nathan » Wed Jul 24, 2019 12:49 pm

I sincerely hope they don't. They should drop the few Glenelg / Ent Centre trams altogether and focus on two clear distinct lines.

And the substitute buses were a complete fucking nightmare with the Botanic/RAH route completely out of sync with the Ent Centre / South Tce bus, scheduled buses not showing up at all, and real time tracking most of the time not working.

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Re: News & Discussion: Trams

#4259 Post by PeFe » Wed Jul 24, 2019 3:12 pm

Nathan wrote:
Wed Jul 24, 2019 12:49 pm
I sincerely hope they don't. They should drop the few Glenelg / Ent Centre trams altogether and focus on two clear distinct lines.
Never going to happen with the current South Australian government....

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Re: News & Discussion: Trams

#4260 Post by Spotto » Wed Jul 24, 2019 5:17 pm

adelaide transport wrote:
Wed Jul 24, 2019 12:36 pm
I wonder if Adelaide Metro will ever consider running most ex Glenelg trams straight through to the Entertainment Centre, and Botanic Gardens trams only to RAH and return?
By terminating Glenelg trams at RAH, it’s a faster turnaround for services since they don’t have to go all the way to the Entertainment Centre.

The Entertainment Centre to Botanic Gardens tram is effectively the foundation for a future city loop; start Ent Ctr, along Port Road and North Terrace, Hutt Street, insert whatever southern section is chosen, up West Terrace back onto Port Road to Ent Ctr, repeat. I don’t think Ent Ctr should be cut off from the North Terrace service.

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