[VIS] Interstate Trains at Adelaide Railway Station

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claybro
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[VIS] Re: interstate passenger trains back to the Adel Railway Sta

#16 Post by claybro » Thu Jun 30, 2016 11:54 am

Waewick wrote:
Patrick_27 wrote:You can be assured of on thing, the return of interstate rail to the Adelaide Railway Station will commence the knock-on effect of the standardisation of our rail network, starting with the Belair Line.
would that include all of the lines we just relaied for the electrification works?
Why does the metro system have to be the same gauge as any regional/freight lines? they serve different purposes, and would use different platforms in the station anyway. This does not have to be as hard as it is being made out to be. Just start with a couple of regional trains ie Spencer Gulf, Barossa and run them in to Adelaide station on whatever gauge it is. If these are successful, particularly for footy express services, then upgrade the Mount Gambier line. This could connect to Western Victoria. If more/longer platforms are required, just build them toward the Morphett street end.

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[VIS] Re: interstate passenger trains back to the Adel Railway Sta

#17 Post by Waewick » Thu Jun 30, 2016 12:24 pm

claybro wrote:
Waewick wrote:
Patrick_27 wrote:You can be assured of on thing, the return of interstate rail to the Adelaide Railway Station will commence the knock-on effect of the standardisation of our rail network, starting with the Belair Line.
would that include all of the lines we just relaied for the electrification works?
Why does the metro system have to be the same gauge as any regional/freight lines? they serve different purposes, and would use different platforms in the station anyway. This does not have to be as hard as it is being made out to be. Just start with a couple of regional trains ie Spencer Gulf, Barossa and run them in to Adelaide station on whatever gauge it is. If these are successful, particularly for footy express services, then upgrade the Mount Gambier line. This could connect to Western Victoria. If more/longer platforms are required, just build them toward the Morphett street end.
I don't know, that is why I asked.

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[VIS] Re: interstate passenger trains back to the Adel Railway Sta

#18 Post by mattwinter » Thu Jun 30, 2016 2:05 pm

Waewick wrote:
Patrick_27 wrote:You can be assured of on thing, the return of interstate rail to the Adelaide Railway Station will commence the knock-on effect of the standardisation of our rail network, starting with the Belair Line.
would that include all of the lines we just relaied for the electrification works?

They have Gauge convertible sleepers I believe?? Makes it a much easier task

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[VIS] Re: interstate passenger trains back to the Adel Railway Sta

#19 Post by claybro » Thu Jun 30, 2016 2:42 pm

mattwinter wrote:
Waewick wrote:
Patrick_27 wrote:You can be assured of on thing, the return of interstate rail to the Adelaide Railway Station will commence the knock-on effect of the standardisation of our rail network, starting with the Belair Line.
would that include all of the lines we just relaied for the electrification works?

They have Gauge convertible sleepers I believe?? Makes it a much easier task
Again-what is the need to convert the metro system gauge even with convertible sleepers? This is often used as a reason not to have regional trains into Adelaide station, or even regional trains at all. But metro and regional operate as 2 different systems on different gauges in many other places, so what is the issue? I'm genuinely curious as it keeps getting brought up.

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[VIS] Re: interstate passenger trains back to the Adel Railway Sta

#20 Post by Patrick_27 » Thu Jun 30, 2016 7:57 pm

claybro wrote:
mattwinter wrote:
Waewick wrote:would that include all of the lines we just relaied for the electrification works?

They have Gauge convertible sleepers I believe?? Makes it a much easier task
Again-what is the need to convert the metro system gauge even with convertible sleepers? This is often used as a reason not to have regional trains into Adelaide station, or even regional trains at all. But metro and regional operate as 2 different systems on different gauges in many other places, so what is the issue? I'm genuinely curious as it keeps getting brought up.
To answer your question from my point of view... Gawler, Outer Harbour and Seaford could probably stay as is but to bring interstate trains into the Adelaide Railway Station would require at-least one platform being forfeited to the cause, which if our metro rail network IS to grow over time, how will losing one of it's platforms to interstate rail work... The simplest answer is to keep interstate rail where it is based, which doesn't please any of us. The other option is standardising to Belair Line so that these metro trains can use the platform when interstate rail isn't using it, but then if there is an interstate train using the platform then Belair services will need a second standardised platform for their services, which if that line were standardised then it would be deemed useless for all other services. The other issue with only standardising the Belair Line would be where to house the trains, as we've seen with our electric train fleet. I look at Melbourne's network in the way of freight using metro lines, it works well. Especially for freight heading along the Frankston Line, now granted there are three lines along the Frankston corridor so it makes it easier for metro trains to bypass the slower freight services but if metro and interstate/freight services were to share a line on the Belair corridor (with a duplicated Belair Line), the existing bypasses used on the single-track Belair Line could be retained for bypassing the slowers services on the line.

Benefits to standardising the Belair Line are obvious, it would open up the option of extending the line further towards the growing populations in the hills. A case study demonstrating higher patronage would then justify electrifying the line which would make for faster AND safer services along this line, considering electric trains are lighter and easier to control.

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[VIS] Re: interstate passenger trains back to the Adel Railway Sta

#21 Post by ChillyPhilly » Fri Jul 01, 2016 3:15 am

rev wrote:
claybro wrote:
Waewick wrote:at sounds like a difficult thing to do with no understanding at all of what it involves.
In the 1920's, steam locos towing dozens of regional and interstate trains managed to pull in to Adelaide station daily, cars were shunted in to place, and the locos turned around using a manual turn table. In Melbourne today many more multitudes of regional and interstate trains use Southern Cross, side by side with metro trains on adjacent platforms. This argument of recent years that operationally it is too difficult to get interstate trains into Adelaide station in the new millennium really is a pisstake. Parklands station is a horrible place to arrive.
With the new hospital and new university buildings going up, they should take the opportunity to extend the covered station platforms further west, and add more platforms if possible even if it's just for suburban trains.
Is interstate train travel even that well used?
Exactly my thoughts in a nutshell. I'd love to see interstate trains depart from ARS.
To answer your question about interstate train services, the Ghan is pretty much a weekly service and the Indian Pacific is very frequent too. I have a friend who's been working for Great Southern Rail for a couple months now. She quite likes it.
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[VIS] Re: interstate passenger trains back to the Adel Railway Sta

#22 Post by claybro » Fri Jul 01, 2016 12:53 pm

Patrick_27 wrote:The other option is standardising to Belair Line so that these metro trains can use the platform when interstate rail isn't using it, but then if there is an interstate train using the platform then Belair services will need a second standardised platform for their services, which if that line were standardised then it would be deemed useless for all other services. The other issue with only standardising the Belair Line would be where to house the trains, as we've seen with our electric train fleet
Still confused...I must be dumb. Is not the current Belair line the same gauge as the other metro lines? If so, why cant the Belair train share platforms with the other suburban trains. Why does it need to be converted to standard gauge to share a platform with "regional" or interstate trains in Adelaide station. Just keep Belair train to the metro platforms, and convert and lengthen 1 platform to standard gauge for interstate trains. The belair line and all other metro lines operate on a different system, so there should be no conversions of any of these to standard gauge required surely?

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[VIS] Re: interstate passenger trains back to the Adel Railway Sta

#23 Post by PD2/20 » Fri Jul 01, 2016 1:18 pm

claybro wrote:
Patrick_27 wrote:The other option is standardising to Belair Line so that these metro trains can use the platform when interstate rail isn't using it, but then if there is an interstate train using the platform then Belair services will need a second standardised platform for their services, which if that line were standardised then it would be deemed useless for all other services. The other issue with only standardising the Belair Line would be where to house the trains, as we've seen with our electric train fleet
Still confused...I must be dumb. Is not the current Belair line the same gauge as the other metro lines? If so, why cant the Belair train share platforms with the other suburban trains. Why does it need to be converted to standard gauge to share a platform with "regional" or interstate trains in Adelaide station. Just keep Belair train to the metro platforms, and convert and lengthen 1 platform to standard gauge for interstate trains. The belair line and all other metro lines operate on a different system, so there should be no conversions of any of these to standard gauge required surely?
Consider the current length of the IP and Ghan formations. The IP is averaging 30 cars. The Ghan recently had a 1100m formation (44 cars + engines). A single platform of this length would stretch from Platform 1 past the new RAH to almost Port Road. The existing platforms in the ARS have a max length of about 200m on the south side and are shorter on the north side. So you would need about 5-6 of the existing platforms to accomodate the Ghan and 3-4 for the IP. This would involve shunting the portions of the formations into the separate platforms. The old ARS had 12-13 platforms and was able to cope with the suburban and other traffic. Nowadays all nine platforms are used intensivelty in the peaks. The IP is currently timed to lay over in Adelaide in either the morning or afternoon peak. Keswick has the advantage of three 500m platforms and shunting facilities that can deal readily with the present train lengths. It would seem that rather than spending a considerable sum of money on providing an enlarged ARS, it would be cheaper upgrading Keswick and providing better transport from there to the city for the current 8-9 interstate services per week.

Standardising Belair would require a separate pool of trains and servicing facilities.

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[VIS] Re: interstate passenger trains back to the Adel Railway Sta

#24 Post by claybro » Fri Jul 01, 2016 2:30 pm

PD2/20 wrote: It would seem that rather than spending a considerable sum of money on providing an enlarged ARS, it would be cheaper upgrading Keswick and providing better transport from there to the city for the current 8-9 interstate services per week
The state of Keswick terminal, which is adequate for use at present is not the reason for this discussion. Spending any money on Keswick is a complete waste. The location as it is stranded somewhere out the back of the parklands is the issue. Its not even an attractive area of the parklands. It is not a good first impression of Adelaide by train. If platform capacity at ARS is the issue-then build another platform. There is space galore between the hospital and the river at the end of the existing platforms to extend and duplicate. Put a second entry for these platforms off Morphett street bridge. Track into the station the wrong gauge?-then change it to that platform/s only, no need to go changing kilometres of track on other metro lines. There are other stations in other cities than handle many more train movements, but somehow we imagine ARS is New York central and could not fit another thing in.

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[VIS] Re: interstate passenger trains back to the Adel Railway Sta

#25 Post by Goodsy » Fri Jul 01, 2016 3:48 pm

Sell the land the Keswick terminal is on to a property developer, provide a metro station there for them and spend the rest on upgrading the ARS

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[VIS] Re: interstate passenger trains back to the Adel Railway Sta

#26 Post by Nathan » Fri Jul 01, 2016 3:53 pm

I can't see why you couldn't have a single 500m platform on the southern side, with a standard gauge line on either side. Trains would only need to be split once, and the platform would only extend as far as the new Adelaide Uni building.

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[VIS] Re: interstate passenger trains back to the Adel Railway Sta

#27 Post by claybro » Fri Jul 01, 2016 4:27 pm

Nathan wrote:I can't see why you couldn't have a single 500m platform on the southern side, with a standard gauge line on either side. Trains would only need to be split once, and the platform would only extend as far as the new Adelaide Uni building.
GoodSmackUp wrote:Sell the land the Keswick terminal is on to a property developer, provide a metro station there for them and spend the rest on upgrading the ARS
Now were talking! :cheers:

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[VIS] Re: interstate passenger trains back to the Adel Railway Sta

#28 Post by AG » Fri Jul 01, 2016 6:44 pm

claybro wrote:
Patrick_27 wrote:The other option is standardising to Belair Line so that these metro trains can use the platform when interstate rail isn't using it, but then if there is an interstate train using the platform then Belair services will need a second standardised platform for their services, which if that line were standardised then it would be deemed useless for all other services. The other issue with only standardising the Belair Line would be where to house the trains, as we've seen with our electric train fleet
Still confused...I must be dumb. Is not the current Belair line the same gauge as the other metro lines? If so, why cant the Belair train share platforms with the other suburban trains. Why does it need to be converted to standard gauge to share a platform with "regional" or interstate trains in Adelaide station. Just keep Belair train to the metro platforms, and convert and lengthen 1 platform to standard gauge for interstate trains. The belair line and all other metro lines operate on a different system, so there should be no conversions of any of these to standard gauge required surely?
The Belair line is an odd ball. There are two tracks which run parallel to each other, one being the standard gauge line for interstate freight and passenger services and the other the broad gauge line for suburban services. Converting only the Belair Line fully to standard gauge poses issues for rolling stock and maintenance as the facilities are located at Dry Creek on the Gawler Line.

It's possible to operate dual gauge lines for short sections (i.e. both broad and standard gauge trains can use the corridor and platform). There's instances of this in Melbourne and Brisbane where trains of two different gauges share the same track. Platform 1 at Roma Street, and platform 3 at South Brisbane and South Bank here in Brisbane can be used by both standard and narrow gauge passenger trains.

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[VIS] Re: interstate passenger trains back to the Adel Railway Station

#29 Post by flaneur » Mon Apr 16, 2018 8:02 pm

from what I understand is that there is provision for a new railway station at the new medical science building ( cheese grater) and the new university building where there is a tram stop at the Morphett Street Bridge, so if regional trains do start again ( which eventually has to happen despite the previous Government's 30 year plan), easier access for regional people to visit the new RAH. SG for regional lines makes sense as it is suitable for passenger and freight traffic, so the Belair line would benefit as the line can now be duplicated. The alternative is to use dual gauge bogies which is quite common between Spain and France

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[VIS] Re: interstate passenger trains back to the Adel Railway Station

#30 Post by Norman » Mon Apr 16, 2018 8:33 pm

flaneur wrote:
Mon Apr 16, 2018 8:02 pm
from what I understand is that there is provision for a new railway station at the new medical science building ( cheese grater) and the new university building where there is a tram stop at the Morphett Street Bridge, so if regional trains do start again ( which eventually has to happen despite the previous Government's 30 year plan), easier access for regional people to visit the new RAH. SG for regional lines makes sense as it is suitable for passenger and freight traffic, so the Belair line would benefit as the line can now be duplicated. The alternative is to use dual gauge bogies which is quite common between Spain and France
Actually, the provision between the university buildings is for entry into a rail tunnel, not a station.

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