[VIS] Interstate Trains at Adelaide Railway Station

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mattwinter
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[VIS] Re: interstate passenger trains back to the Adel Railway Station

#46 Post by mattwinter » Mon Apr 23, 2018 12:36 pm

Love some of the dreaming but it's not exactly easy to do major developments in the parklands in Adelaide, and given at the moment we only have a twice-a-week service to Melbourne that's propped up by government funding and the Indian Pacific which works fine at the current terminal... realistically there's going to be some proof that regional or interstate rail is actualy worth it before any real money is spent.

They'll have to figure out how to get a couple of services started and get them viable before any major funding can be justified.

Still - nothing wrong with some vision

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[VIS] Re: interstate passenger trains back to the Adel Railway Station

#47 Post by rev » Tue Apr 24, 2018 9:37 am

Westside wrote:
Mon Apr 23, 2018 12:19 pm
rev wrote:
Sun Apr 22, 2018 11:36 am
claybro wrote:
Sun Apr 22, 2018 10:04 am
What you have described already exits at Keswick. Isolated area, far from existing hotels and transport connections. Dry and desolate.

What I have described is a purpose built train station with facilities on the edge of the CBD(just like the ARS is), and other PT connections to the rest of the CBD.
There's already an increase in development on that side anyway, this would potentially be a catalyst for more development that will really build up the south east corner of the CBD.

What exists at Keswick is far from what my idea describes, and is as embarrassing as the "cruise ship terminal" at Outer Harbor.
Rev, I think you are mistaking the suburb of Adelaide from the actual CBD. Adelaide's actual Central Business District does not encompass everything between North, South, West and East terraces, but a much smaller almost L shape around King William St down no further than Vic Sq, and east at around Grenfell/Pirie to Pultney. (You can see this in the different planning areas from the Adelaide city council, but I can't be bothered referencing it now unless someone really wants me to find it). So Claybo is right that a new station on South Tce would be just as inconvenient as the current Keswick station apart from a few facilities upgrades.
I quite often use the term loosely and interchange between "City" and CBD.

Well yes, a station on it's own in the southern parklands bordered by the intersection of South Tce/Morphett St would be inconvenient.
I'm not suggesting it be built on it's own, I'm suggesting it be built as part of a wider public transport network in the city/cbd, building the much talked about tram loop and expanding the tram 'network', building the visioned underground train loop in the city. All of this could be a catalyst for further investment and development in the city and cbd, particularly the south eastern corner.

They rezoned the industrial area(coke etc) along Port Road opposite Bonython park, to allow for 'taller' residential developments there, slapped down a tram line past it all, and Coke is on the way out, and developers are on the way in with proposal for nearby sites already.

There's already a bit of activity development wise on the southern side of the city. A tram line and train station would add more.
What's the best PT options there at the moment? Buses?
Trams and trains would do a lot for the area.

You guys need to use your imagination because you aren't seeing the potential we have here.
It might be difficult to do anything on the parklands doesn't mean nothing can happen. If there is political will for it, it will happen. Look at the Obahn tunnel. The parklands loser group still hasn't recovered from seeing the tunnel being carved out. Build a new train station for metro, regional and interstate trains, and perhaps it'll kill the parklands loser group off permanently. It's a win win. :banana:

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[VIS] Re: interstate passenger trains back to the Adel Railway Station

#48 Post by Norman » Tue Apr 24, 2018 11:31 am

Any underground stops are likely to be Hindmarsh Square and Central Market. It probably won't venture anywhere near the south parklands for a number of decades.

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[VIS] Re: interstate passenger trains back to the Adel Railway Station

#49 Post by flaneur » Sat May 12, 2018 7:43 pm

there is a long term plan to introduce standard gauge rail onto the Adelaide Metro network, in the not too distant future will start with the Belair Line especially if the Northern Rail Bypass gets the green light. Converting to standard gauge will gain new train sets and cheaper to purchase. Having the Overland return to Adelaide Station isn't that hard, using platform 9 and possible extension or build new Interstate and Regional Rail Terminal west of the existing station opposite the cheese grater, which I've read has allowances for such a building. The present standard gauge line for the Overland will crossover or under the existing broad gauge network. A consortium would be necessary to purchase the The Overland and would require new rolling stock similar to Germany's ICE Trains, unfortunately will still have to go via Geelong until such time the Victorian Government build a standard gauge track via Ballarat into Southern Cross Station

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[VIS] Re: interstate passenger trains back to the Adel Railway Station

#50 Post by Nort » Tue May 15, 2018 11:19 am

flaneur wrote:
Sat May 12, 2018 7:43 pm
Having the Overland return to Adelaide Station isn't that hard, using platform 9 and possible extension or build new Interstate and Regional Rail Terminal west of the existing station opposite the cheese grater, which I've read has allowances for such a building.
Long term I would hope we will see interstate rail moved to that site as part of a development that covers over the rail lines there.

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[VIS] Re: interstate passenger trains back to the Adel Railway Station

#51 Post by dbl96 » Sat May 26, 2018 4:18 pm

flaneur wrote:
Sat May 12, 2018 7:43 pm
there is a long term plan to introduce standard gauge rail onto the Adelaide Metro network, in the not too distant future will start with the Belair Line especially if the Northern Rail Bypass gets the green light. Converting to standard gauge will gain new train sets and cheaper to purchase. Having the Overland return to Adelaide Station isn't that hard, using platform 9 and possible extension or build new Interstate and Regional Rail Terminal west of the existing station opposite the cheese grater, which I've read has allowances for such a building. The present standard gauge line for the Overland will crossover or under the existing broad gauge network. A consortium would be necessary to purchase the The Overland and would require new rolling stock similar to Germany's ICE Trains, unfortunately will still have to go via Geelong until such time the Victorian Government build a standard gauge track via Ballarat into Southern Cross Station
Why would "a consortium be nescessary to purchase the The Overland and would require new rolling stock similar to Germany's ICE Trains"? "ICE Trains", or any high speed trains require very high standard tracks to realise their potential. Top speeds are only acheived on dedicated high speed lines that are built to very high specifications, especially with regard to grade separation and curve radius. These kind of trains often also run on ordinary lines as well, for access to towns not directly on the high speed line, but ultimately they are still bound by the speed limit on that track. There's no point buying expensive trains capable of travelling at over 350kmph if the speed limit on your railway network is 100kmph. To even run ICE trains on the overland route would first require electification. To allow them to function properly would require enourmous investment in complete duplication and grade separation of the line to Melbourne and massive track realignment works. This is something which would be great to aim towards in the more distant future, but its not very practical right now.

The problem with the Overland is the way that Great Southern Rail has run it as a luxury tourist train as opposed to a practical transport solution. Journey times and particularly ticket prices are simply far too high to be competitive with air or road travel. This, not station location, is the principal reason why patronage is so low. Rather than providing gold-plated service, the Overland should be focused on providing a no-frills, regular and very affordable connection between Adelaide and Melbourne. It needs to be convenient, and the tickets should be cheap enough for people to choose it over the relative speed of flying. Essentially it should be operated as a long distance public transport service. The model for this kind of service in Australia is VLine. Relatively minor upgrades could permit VLine VLocity type trains to service the Adelaide-Melbourne line at up to 160kmph - potentially cutting the journey time down to under 5 hours. Combined with low prices, this would be seriously competitive with air and road travel.

The conversion of the line from Ballarat to standard gauge is probably only a matter of time. A large portion of the Victorian broad gauge network has already been converted, or is in the process of being converted. Once there are no lines left dependent on this section for network access, it too will likely be converted.

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[VIS] Re: Interstate Trains at Adelaide Railway Station

#52 Post by flaneur » Sun Jun 03, 2018 9:34 pm

rolling stock for the Overland is out of date, may still be useful for charter work, football specials and motor race special to Tailem Bend but not for modern day intercity rail. The Overland is outside of GSR business model, that is tourist trains, and GSR know that it hasn't worked for the Overland. Will have to wait til August 2019 to see what the future is.

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[VIS] Re: Interstate Trains at Adelaide Railway Station

#53 Post by Bob » Sat Jun 22, 2019 9:52 am

There is a remote risk that Great Southern Rail will move from Adelaide in the long term, and no interstate passenger services will go via Adelaide if the rail bypass is implemented from Murray Bridge to Malalla. There may not be any interstate passenger rail terminal in Adelaide at all, let alone returning to Adelaide Railway Station. Let me explain.

GSR previously wanted to implement First Class only interstate services but there was government push back. As they have progressively moved trains towards tourists rather than providing a community service, there still may be a chance this happens in the future. This changes a number of factors in their passenger rail operations. The SA State Govt does not want to support GSR in any way. Parkes NSW will become a major rail interchange by 2025, GSR may move there with NSW regional funding assistance.

The likely tourist-oriented services by mid 2020's:

Melbourne-Darwin via Hills bypass loop with no entry into Adelaide.
Sydney-Perth via Crystal Brook with no detour into Adelaide.
Melbourne-Brisbane via new inland rail (project now started due for completion 2025) via Parkes.

GSR may move its HQ operations under these conditions.

Something to keep in the back of the mind.

Added a couple of related links FYI on the broader picture in play:
https://inlandrail.artc.com.au/
https://www.nsw.gov.au/improving-nsw/re ... -precinct/

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[VIS] Re: Interstate Trains at Adelaide Railway Station

#54 Post by Eurostar » Sat Jun 22, 2019 10:45 am

How do we attract to Virgin Trains to come to Adelaide and run services between Adelaide and Melbourne? By all means let GSR run cruiseships on rails whereas a company like Virgin could focus on no frills services.

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[VIS] Re: Interstate Trains at Adelaide Railway Station

#55 Post by Goodsy » Sat Jun 22, 2019 12:20 pm

Eurostar wrote:
Sat Jun 22, 2019 10:45 am
How do we attract to Virgin Trains to come to Adelaide and run services between Adelaide and Melbourne? By all means let GSR run cruiseships on rails whereas a company like Virgin could focus on no frills services.
you can't attract an international company like that without proving that they could actually make money off the service

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[VIS] Re: Interstate Trains at Adelaide Railway Station

#56 Post by claybro » Mon Jun 24, 2019 9:08 am

Goodsy wrote:
Sat Jun 22, 2019 12:20 pm
Eurostar wrote:
Sat Jun 22, 2019 10:45 am
How do we attract to Virgin Trains to come to Adelaide and run services between Adelaide and Melbourne? By all means let GSR run cruiseships on rails whereas a company like Virgin could focus on no frills services.
you can't attract an international company like that without proving that they could actually make money off the service
With modern rolling stock, capable of 160 km/h, regular service, and track infrastructure capable of not holding up trains behind freight slots, and the service would be popular. It would require spending couple of billion though, straightening parts of the track in the hills and duplicating at least parts of the line. Maybe in future, if air travel becomes prohibitively expensive with fuel costs due to climate compliance, it may be looked at.

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[VIS] Re: Interstate Trains at Adelaide Railway Station

#57 Post by PeFe » Mon Jun 24, 2019 10:26 am

This thread should be moved to the " visions/suggestions" section.......or even better still "the never gonna happen but people still fantasize about it" thread.

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[VIS] Re: interstate passenger trains back to the Adel Railway Station

#58 Post by Spotto » Mon Jun 24, 2019 1:18 pm

flaneur wrote:
Sat May 12, 2018 7:43 pm
Having the Overland return to Adelaide Station isn't that hard, using platform 9 and possible extension or build new Interstate and Regional Rail Terminal west of the existing station opposite the cheese grater, which I've read has allowances for such a building. The present standard gauge line for the Overland will crossover or under the existing broad gauge network.
Platforms 8/9 are already used by Outer Harbor & Grange services where they run free of any crossover with the Gawler Line or ARTC freight. The same goes for Seaford & Tonsley services on Platforms 1/2/3 (though they do sometimes cross onto Belair Line tracks to bypass Mile End Station). I wouldn't touch them.

If we get SG or DG tracks into Adelaide Station, I'd suggest one or both of Platforms 5/6. Assuming the use of the ARTC lines for SG passenger services, they would deviate at the Gaol Loop, following the curve of the current BG tracks at the Gaol Triangle and ending up in the centre of Adelaide Yard anyway.

But, interstate and regional trains into Adelaide Station should not be discussed without the Gawler-Seaford tunnel link which would move (let's say 90% of) Gawler and Seaford trains out of Adelaide Station (Tonsley/Flinders trains would still terminate at Adelaide with possibility of a few peak Gawler and Seaford trains), reducing idle trains and freeing capacity for said interstate and regional trains.

Platforms 1/2 - Flinders Line (and Seaford Line peak specials)
Platforms 3/4 - Belair Line
Platforms 5/6 - SG or DG interstate and regional (DG leaves capacity for use by current BG trains if necessary)
Platform 7 - Outer Harbor & Grange Lines (and Gawler Line peak specials)
Platforms 8/9 - Outer Harbor & Grange Lines

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[VIS] Re: Interstate Trains at Adelaide Railway Station

#59 Post by EBG » Sun Jun 30, 2019 3:38 pm

We should demand that all suburban lines be standardised as promised in 2007 to be completed by 2013 then we would not be worrying about different gauges and trains could return to Bridge Water and extend to Mt Barker.
Last edited by EBG on Sun Jun 30, 2019 8:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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[VIS] Re: Interstate Trains at Adelaide Railway Station

#60 Post by SRW » Sun Jun 30, 2019 4:07 pm

EBG wrote:
Sun Jun 30, 2019 3:38 pm
We should demand that all suburban lines be standardised as promised in 2007 to be completed by 2013 then we not be worrying about different gauges and trains could return to Bridge Water and extend to Mt Barker.
Agree. IMO, that's the only way we'd see regional services recommence. And there ought to be federal dollars available for standardisation, which we've be preparing for all this time with convertible sleepers.
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