[VIS] Interstate Trains at Adelaide Railway Station

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[VIS] Re: Interstate Trains at Adelaide Railway Station

#61 Post by Spotto » Sun Jun 30, 2019 7:02 pm

EBG wrote:
Sun Jun 30, 2019 3:38 pm
We should demand that all suburban lines be standardised as promised in 2007 to be completed by 2013 then we not be worrying about different gauges and trains could return to Bridge Water and extend to Mt Barker.
Is standardisation of the suburban network really that big a priority, or necessary? Standardising the Belair Line isn't going to magically restore double track operation, the ARTC freight line would continue to run on its own line regardless which benefits both freight and passenger trains; freight trains don't need to be timetabled around stopping passenger trains, and a broken down freight train won't stop passenger trains from running. Passenger trains won't return to Bridgewater along the current alignment either, the journey time is just too slow. Same case with Mount Barker.

A better way would be to realign the Adelaide-Wolseley line out of the inner hills. The map below is a hastily made simple version of maps I've already made, but the idealised bypass in pink (tunnel and viaduct combo, obviously won't be a straight line) will run Mitcham to Crafers, then follow SEF from Crafers to Bridgewater (orange line). From there, there's two options:
  • Option 1: Rejoin the current alignment (blue) - cheaper than realigning the entire line, but doesn't include Mount Barker on the main line
  • Option 2: Continue through to Monarto South (lime green) - more expensive, but faster and more direct route, and includes Mount Barker on the main line
In either case, it would give potential passenger services to Bridgewater and Mount Barker a faster alignment by avoiding the inner hills completely, and would reach up to 36.4k people across the Crafers-Bridgewater, Hahndorf-Verdun, Balhannah-Oakbank and Mount Barker-Littlehampton areas. All new stations would be built as bus-train interchanges with large Park'n'Rides like on the Gawler Line, connecting to local bus routes. There's enough room to expand the SEF median to accomodate a single track ARTC line with passing loops, and a double track passenger line to Mt Barker. Due to cost, Option 1 could be the interim solution and if the demand develops Option 2 could then be built with the potential for every other train to continue to Murray Bridge on single track.

Added bonus is that removing the freight line from the hills means the current SG track from Mitcham to Belair can be converted back to BG for double track Belair Line. Then, duplication only needs to happen between the city and Mitcham instead of the entire length of the line.
SEF lines.png
Last edited by Spotto on Sun Jun 30, 2019 8:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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[VIS] Re: Interstate Trains at Adelaide Railway Station

#62 Post by Patrick_27 » Sun Jun 30, 2019 7:12 pm

SRW wrote:
Sun Jun 30, 2019 4:07 pm
EBG wrote:
Sun Jun 30, 2019 3:38 pm
We should demand that all suburban lines be standardised as promised in 2007 to be completed by 2013 then we not be worrying about different gauges and trains could return to Bridge Water and extend to Mt Barker.
Agree. IMO, that's the only way we'd see regional services recommence. And there ought to be federal dollars available for standardisation, which we've be preparing for all this time with convertible sleepers.
Why did they even bother laying down convertible sleepers? Wouldn't have it been cheaper and more efficient to convert each line gradually to standard gauge?

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[VIS] Re: Interstate Trains at Adelaide Railway Station

#63 Post by SBD » Sun Jun 30, 2019 9:35 pm

SRW wrote:
Sun Jun 30, 2019 4:07 pm
EBG wrote:
Sun Jun 30, 2019 3:38 pm
We should demand that all suburban lines be standardised as promised in 2007 to be completed by 2013 then we not be worrying about different gauges and trains could return to Bridge Water and extend to Mt Barker.
Agree. IMO, that's the only way we'd see regional services recommence. And there ought to be federal dollars available for standardisation, which we've be preparing for all this time with convertible sleepers.
Only the Hills line and the line through Virginia to Crystal Brook are standard gauge to Adelaide. Victor Harbor is the only regional destination that still has rails and is connected to Adelaide (Keswick) by a different gauge. If regional rail was likely, the cost of extending standard gauge into Adelaide station would be insignificant in the cost of restoring necessary infrastructure on the rest of the route. Virtually nowhere has usable passenger facilities on standard gauge and nowhere outside the metro area has usable broad gauge tracks except Mount Barker to Victor Harbor.

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[VIS] Re: Interstate Trains at Adelaide Railway Station

#64 Post by 1NEEDS2POST » Sun Jun 30, 2019 10:38 pm

Will the Gawler line electrification include laying gauge convertible sleepers? If so, that means the three major railway lines are pretty much ready to go for gauge conversion. What will hold it back?

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[VIS] Re: Interstate Trains at Adelaide Railway Station

#65 Post by SBD » Sun Jun 30, 2019 10:57 pm

1NEEDS2POST wrote:
Sun Jun 30, 2019 10:38 pm
Will the Gawler line electrification include laying gauge convertible sleepers? If so, that means the three major railway lines are pretty much ready to go for gauge conversion. What will hold it back?
I think much of the line already has gauge-convertible concrete sleepers.

Changing gauge actually means moving the sleepers as well in stations to maintain platform clearance (as the centreline of the train shifts if you only move one rail).

What is the benefit of changing from broad to standard gauge for the metro rail network now that it is isolated from what is left of the regional/interstate network?

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[VIS] Re: Interstate Trains at Adelaide Railway Station

#66 Post by Patrick_27 » Mon Jul 01, 2019 12:02 am

SBD wrote:
Sun Jun 30, 2019 10:57 pm
What is the benefit of changing from broad to standard gauge for the metro rail network now that it is isolated from what is left of the regional/interstate network?
One benefit off the top of my head (and this might seem stupid, but it has been done with buses) we could be buying excess/older rolling stock from interstate if we were standard gauge.

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[VIS] Re: Interstate Trains at Adelaide Railway Station

#67 Post by SRW » Mon Jul 01, 2019 12:54 am

Patrick_27 wrote:
Mon Jul 01, 2019 12:02 am
SBD wrote:
Sun Jun 30, 2019 10:57 pm
What is the benefit of changing from broad to standard gauge for the metro rail network now that it is isolated from what is left of the regional/interstate network?
One benefit off the top of my head (and this might seem stupid, but it has been done with buses) we could be buying excess/older rolling stock from interstate if we were standard gauge.
I wouldn't think that would amount to much given that it's presumably an option already available to us with bogie exchange. For instance, our rolling stock is capable of being converted to standard gauge running.
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[VIS] Re: Interstate Trains at Adelaide Railway Station

#68 Post by ralmin » Mon Jul 01, 2019 2:15 am

Spotto wrote:
Sun Jun 30, 2019 7:02 pm
A better way would be to realign the Adelaide-Wolseley line out of the inner hills. The map below is a hastily made simple version of maps I've already made, but the idealised bypass in pink (tunnel and viaduct combo, obviously won't be a straight line) will run Mitcham to Crafers, then follow SEF from Crafers to Bridgewater (orange line).
Tunnelling Mitcham to Crafers will have a gradient that is higher than freight trains are designed for. The existing line has a maximum gradient of 1 in 45. There is an elevation difference of 490 metres from Mitcham to Crafers, requiring a track length of 22 km to achieve 1 in 45 gradient. The straight line route is only 8.8 km, giving a gradient of 1 in 18. Crafers is simply too high up for trains to get there in a straight or even semi-straight line. That's why they currently divert far south through Eden Hills and Blackwood.

Perhaps the route for your tunnel bypass needs to continue further through the hills and come out on the SEF at a lower elevation, so that the maximum gradient is no more than 1 in 45. It could continue to Bridgewater, coming out on the downhill to Verdun Junction. If it comes out at the 400 metre elevation contour, the straight line route length is 15.6 km and the elevation difference is 330 m, giving an average gradient of 1 in 47.

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[VIS] Re: Interstate Trains at Adelaide Railway Station

#69 Post by Bob » Mon Jul 01, 2019 8:26 am

Look back at the 2010 freight rail bypass study if you want to see the potential southern hills bypass option, as well as the northern bypass options, and the leaving 'as is' option.

At the time the economics did not stack up.

Attached here for some light reading...

https://investment.infrastructure.gov.a ... Report.pdf

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[VIS] Re: Interstate Trains at Adelaide Railway Station

#70 Post by SBD » Mon Jul 01, 2019 8:33 am

What would be the ruling grade for the rest of the journey to Melbourne?
I imagine that going to the cost and effort of drilling a tunnel, it would be worthwhile making sure that the tunnel/Adelaide Hills is no longer the section that limits the size/loading of trains.

I'm not sure if GlobeLink has been designed to a level that advises on curve radius and gradient yet. I guess that's an attempt at a cheaper way of addressing the same concern. If a tunnel is proposed as an alternative, it has to be "better". Shorter is one advantage, but not at the total cost of other measures.

Finding a new gold/silver/copper deposit could be an interesting opportunity from a big hole under the Adelaide Hills that might help to fund the rest. 8)

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[VIS] Re: Interstate Trains at Adelaide Railway Station

#71 Post by 1NEEDS2POST » Mon Jul 01, 2019 6:51 pm

SBD wrote:
Sun Jun 30, 2019 10:57 pm
1NEEDS2POST wrote:
Sun Jun 30, 2019 10:38 pm
Will the Gawler line electrification include laying gauge convertible sleepers? If so, that means the three major railway lines are pretty much ready to go for gauge conversion. What will hold it back?
I think much of the line already has gauge-convertible concrete sleepers.

Changing gauge actually means moving the sleepers as well in stations to maintain platform clearance (as the centreline of the train shifts if you only move one rail).

What is the benefit of changing from broad to standard gauge for the metro rail network now that it is isolated from what is left of the regional/interstate network?
1. As the thread title suggests, interstate trains could use ARS.
2. Regional trains could come back and use ARS.
3. As another poster pointed out, we could use surplus standard gauge rolling stock.
4. Belair line could be double track again. Not saying that it will be at current patronage levels, but at least the option is there.
5. Back up for ARTC in case their track is unusable.
6. 2014 was the year of the last Penrice stone train, but if it were to come back (or any of the Barossa railway), it could access the port on the standard gauge line.
7. Opens up the possibility of passenger trains on Port Adelaide-Dry Creek line and also the standard gauge line north of Salisbury.

It's easier to gauge convert now than later when we might have a larger network.
SBD wrote:
Mon Jul 01, 2019 8:33 am
What would be the ruling grade for the rest of the journey to Melbourne?
That depends on if it's a standard gauge or a broad gauge train :) When ARTC converted the Adelaide-Melbourne line, they didn't use the most direct line via Ballarat. The standard gauge line goes via Geelong. One reason being this route has less steep grades.

Image

I don't know the exact figure, but I can't imagine that the Ballarat line would be any steeper than climbing the Mt Lofty ranges. Victoria is working on gauge converting (with hiccups) most of the lines in the West of the state. The direct Ararat line is not included in the project, but I wouldn't be surprised if it's on the table after the other lines are converted.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murray_Basin_Rail_Project

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[VIS] Re: Interstate Trains at Adelaide Railway Station

#72 Post by ralmin » Mon Jul 01, 2019 7:52 pm

The gradients for the remainder of the Adelaide Hills include several more stretches of 1 in 45, including around Petwood and Callington, and 1 in 49 coming into Murray Bridge. From Murray Bridge to Serviceton, the maximum gradient looks to be 1 in 80. But from Serviceton to Melbourne there are again many sections of 1 in 50. Source: diagrams 04 and 05 at https://extranet.artc.com.au/eng_networ ... iagram-swv.

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[VIS] Re: Interstate Trains at Adelaide Railway Station

#73 Post by SRW » Mon Jul 01, 2019 7:55 pm

1NEEDS2POST wrote:
Mon Jul 01, 2019 6:51 pm
I don't know the exact figure, but I can't imagine that the Ballarat line would be any steeper than climbing the Mt Lofty ranges. Victoria is working on gauge converting (with hiccups) most of the lines in the West of the state. The direct Ararat line is not included in the project, but I wouldn't be surprised if it's on the table after the other lines are converted.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murray_Basin_Rail_Project
What do you suppose the time saving from a more direct route from Adl-Mel would be?
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[VIS] Re: Interstate Trains at Adelaide Railway Station

#74 Post by SBD » Mon Jul 01, 2019 8:05 pm

As others have said, a couple of platforms at Adelaide could be made standard gauge with a short spur from the triangle at Adelaide Gaol. That would work for regional railcars to/from Whyalla, Bordertown and Loxton. A bit extra might be needed to get the engine on the right end of a "real train".

Which other Australian cities have standard gauge metro rail, and which are broad or narrow gauge? I thought Melbourne was broad gauge, Sydney standard, but not sure about Perth or Brisbane. I'm also not sure that there would be that much economy in buying Sydney's clapped-out cast-offs compared to refurbishing the existing 3000-class railcars again. I'm pretty sure they are both gauge-convertible and adaptable to electricity as some of the features when they were new.

The track to Penrice is presently broad gauge. Presumably restoring it to "usable" would be cheaper than converting it to standard gauge as well. At present, there is no demand for its limestone at Port Adelaide. Adelaide Brighton bought the mine specifically to supply its Angaston factory. It would be more likely to get used for passengers to Kalbeeba, Lyndoch, Tanunda, Nuriootpa. The branch to Angaston is now a well-used bike path.

Is Port Adelaide - Dry Creek still dual gauge? It was dual gauge when the standard gauge was added, and must have supported broad gauge stone trains until 2014.

I can see potential value in providing an option for standard gauge railcars to get in to Adelaide Station from the ARTC tracks if there was interest in being able to run railcars on their tracks. I don't see much benefit in converting the Adelaide suburban network to standard gauge. The same railcars on narrower tracks are not going to improve the ride quality for commuting passengers, so there would need to be a strong political argument to spend the money.

Adelaide-Melbourne was the first inter-capital route in Australia to not have a break of gauge when it was built as broad gauge. Now that it is converted to ARTC standard gauge, it won't go back, so the ruling grade question relates to standard gauge. I agree it would not be as steep as the present Adelaide Hills route. My question was in the context of drilling a sloping tunnel, and only considered operations, not safety. I've seen a disaster investigation show about a train crash in 1989 in the USA that had been inevitable for over an hour before the train eventually fell off the curve at the bottom of the hill. I doubt a railway like that would be allowed to be built now. There have been several truck crashes at Glen Osmond attributable in part to the even grade from above the Heysen Tunnels. A rail tunnel from somewhere in the Adelaide hills to a curve in the suburbs would have a significant risk of a problem.

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[VIS] Re: Interstate Trains at Adelaide Railway Station

#75 Post by Spotto » Tue Jul 02, 2019 12:29 am

SBD wrote:
Mon Jul 01, 2019 8:05 pm
Which other Australian cities have standard gauge metro rail, and which are broad or narrow gauge? I thought Melbourne was broad gauge, Sydney standard, but not sure about Perth or Brisbane.
Sydney - Standard gauge
Melbourne - Broad gauge metro and regional, SG interstate
Brisbane & Perth - Narrow gauge metro and regional, SG interstate
SBD wrote:
Mon Jul 01, 2019 8:05 pm
Is Port Adelaide - Dry Creek still dual gauge? It was dual gauge when the standard gauge was added, and must have supported broad gauge stone trains until 2014.
The track is still dual gauge but the BG connection has since been severed at the Dry Creek end. The dormant Rosewater Loop is still dual gauge and the connection probably still exists.

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