[VIS] Interstate Trains at Adelaide Railway Station

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[VIS] Re: Interstate Trains at Adelaide Railway Station

#91 Post by SBD » Fri Aug 09, 2019 12:50 pm

I honestly don't see a large tourist demand (domestic or foreign) for:
  • Electric suburban train to Gawler/Gawler Central/Kalbeeba
  • Change to refurbished 3000 class diesel train to Lyndoch/Rowland Flat/Tanunda/Nuriootpa
  • Change to bus to visit anywhere tourist-like
I think there could be just as much interest for linking all the extant bits of bike/shared paths and promoting bike tourism. By filling in a few gaps and upgrading a few other bits, we could have a connected bike trail all the way from Willunga to Clare including McLaren Vale, Barossa and Clare Valley wine regions (spurs to Adelaide Hills and Adelaide Plains), Adelaide city and the River Torrens. It could be scenic and attractive for tourists, but would pass countless schools, residential, shopping and employment districts as well as the country towns and historic sites (including Kapunda) along the route.

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[VIS] Re: Interstate Trains at Adelaide Railway Station

#92 Post by dbl96 » Sat Aug 10, 2019 1:48 pm

rhino wrote:
Fri Aug 09, 2019 10:47 am
dbl96 wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 8:25 pm

The western hills bypass is established policy.
Except it isn't. And it would be pointless. Think about it.
The western hills bypass is established policy. (https://www.saglobelink.com.au/freight_corridor)

Admittedly very light on detail, but established policy nonetheless. In its recent response to the SA Freight Council's call for a link between the South-Eastern Freeway and North-South Corridor, the Liberal party once again reiterated that the western hills bypass is government policy.

I agree that the road and airport components of GlobeLink are largely pointless. A road trip to the industrial areas of Adelaide via Sedan and Truro would mean a detour of around 100km - much slower than using the existing freeway corridor to Glen Osmond and using Cross Rd to reach the N-S Corridor. We don't export nearly enough air freight to justify a purpose built freight airport, especially one so isolated.

However, the rail component of GlobeLink is definately not pointless. It would result in numerous benefits and efficiencies. Freight trains could be double stacked and operate at higher speeds with greater length. Considering the fact that a large and increasing volume of the freight on the Adelaide-Melbourne line is just passing through Adelaide on its way further west, the western hills bypass would not actually represent a detour to much of the traffic on the line. There would be great improvements to amenity in the hills and Metropolitan Adelaide, and significant reductions in traffic congestion on routes that cross the line, without the need for numerous expensive crossing upgrades. Better and more frequent public transport services could be provided along the Belair line.
Norman wrote:
Fri Aug 09, 2019 8:08 am
I think the sheer cost of building infrastructure is turning many state governments, especially ours, off unless they can get majority federal funding and a huge benefit for a large proportion of the population. The labour costs and costs of construction are far greater here than in other countries.
I agree that high costs are a barrier to infrastructure construction in Australia. We need to have a serious inquiry into why this is the case, because it is holding back the progress of the nation.

Infrastructure construction costs in Australia are far above those in comparable countries. For example, the Melbourne Metro tunnel will be 9km long and cost over $10 billion AUD. Meanwhile, Paris is building 200km of new rapid transit metro lines, mostly underground, for just $63 billion AUD - and that's after a massive budget blowout. France has a comparable minimum wage to Australia, and is probably subject to greater pressures from protectionism and unionism than Australia, yet somehow, building a kilometre of railway tunnel in Melbourne is 3.5 times more expensive than building it in Paris (1.1 billion/km vs 315 million/km).

We need to understand why this is the case and proceed from there to work out how we can make infrastructure construction cheaper.
Last edited by dbl96 on Mon Aug 12, 2019 3:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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[VIS] Re: Interstate Trains at Adelaide Railway Station

#93 Post by rhino » Mon Aug 12, 2019 3:01 pm

I'm pretty sure the bypass you're talking about is an eastern Hills Bypass, not a western Hills Bypass. A western Hills Bypass would still necessitate crossing the hills.

That's why I said it would be pointless.

Further to that, I wonder what an eastern Hills Bypass would do for rail freight to Adelaide from the eastern states?
a) The main freight terminal would be moved out to Mallala or somewhere, requiring a longer transit into Adelaide by truck, and more time required. Truck freight to Adelaide will increase as it will be several more hours quicker than rail freight. The South Eastern Freeway will clog up with trucks and we will wish we had kept the hills freight line.
or b) The freight terminal will remain at Regency Park, but become a dead-end terminal, which the rail companies would prefer to avoid. Freight will move to road, and the South Eastern Freeway will clog up with trucks and we will wish we had kept the hills freight line.

As I can't see both lines being maintained, I would prefer the Hills line to be upgraded as much as possible (many people here and on Railpage have hinted at how this could be done, over the past several years) in order to keep or increase rail freight into Adelaide. An eastern hills bypass will benefit WA, NT, NSW and Vic more than us, IMO.
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[VIS] Re: Interstate Trains at Adelaide Railway Station

#94 Post by SBD » Mon Aug 12, 2019 11:30 pm

Assuming there is still rail freight in and out of the Outer Harbor area (I haven't seen a train there for quite a while, but don't visit the area very often either), then a freight line into that area would still be required anyway. The route from the north would pass SCT's Penfield terminal (which has plenty of vacant space on the south side of the track)and Dry Creek.

Standard Gauge would still be required in to Mile End for passenger trains, but even if it wasn't, Regency Park is not far from the junction at Dry Creek and only has the Cormack Road level crossing in between.

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[VIS] Re: Interstate Trains at Adelaide Railway Station

#95 Post by Aidan » Tue Aug 13, 2019 10:48 am

rhino,
If (or I hope, when) the eastern hills bypass line is constructed:
• The freight terminal will remain at Regency Park. Adelaide is big enough to be a significant freight origin/destination in its own right.
• Some freight trains would avoid it, and instead use the terminal at Penfield (just S of where the Nexy crosses the existing railway).
• The rest of the Adelaide to Melbourne line would be upgraded to allow double stacking of containers, which (together with the lower gradients) would slash operating costs, enabling rail to gain a much higher market share.

I'd like to see the line through the hills destandardized so that Steamranger services can return to Adelaide!
Just build it wrote:Bye Union Hall. I'll see you in another life, when we are both cats.

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[VIS] Re: Interstate Trains at Adelaide Railway Station

#96 Post by rhino » Tue Aug 13, 2019 12:55 pm

Aidan,

While I agree that Adelaide is definitely big enough to be a significant freight origin/destination in it's own right, in today's world of just-in-time deliveries (rather than warehousing), where time is money, the extra time taken to deliver to Adelaide by rail will, I believe, lose market share to road transport, necessitating a re-think of the solution in the not-so-distant future.

I don't see much advantage in Penfield over Regency Park from a rail point of view - once the detour off the through-line has been made, it probably makes more sense to get the freight as central to Adelaide as possible, to shorten the truck-run for the last phase of the delivery.

There are still, I believe, some low bridges in Melbourne which still make double-stacking on the current line impossible. This problem can be solved in Adelaide as easily as it can be solved in Melbourne. And tunnell floors can be lowered. They lowered the rail to allow double stacking trough Port Augusta years ago, and they lowered the freeway under the bridge at Crafers too. This is do-able stuff.

Getting a faster rail route on paths where rail is already the mode of choice, and is gaining, (Melbourne to Perth and Darwin) at the detriment of Adelide (more B-Double and C-Tripple truck movememnts) is not good for SA in my view.
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[VIS] Re: Interstate Trains at Adelaide Railway Station

#97 Post by SBD » Tue Aug 13, 2019 4:21 pm

I have no idea how much of what kinds of "stuff" arrive and depart Adelaide by each of sea, rail and road, nor where it comes from and goes to.

The modern ways of shifting stuff are shipping containers or bulk commodities. As far as I know, there are no rail or sea container handling facilities in SA away from Adelaide. Bulk grain still arrives at Port Adelaide for export, but there are only a few sets of regional silos that can send it by rail rather than road, and I'm not even sure if they do - Mallala, Crystal Brook, Keith, Tailem Bend ...?

Treasury Wines has a large warehouse next to the railway line at Penfield. I assume stuff arrives there by road, and leaves there by rail in containers for either Port Adelaide or interstate.

It could make sense to add container handling on Eyre Peninsula, Riverland and Southeast, but by the time rail is improved enough to make the last two viable, the road network will likely also have been upgraded to make it redundant.

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[VIS] Re: Interstate Trains at Adelaide Railway Station

#98 Post by claybro » Tue Aug 13, 2019 4:48 pm

rhino wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 12:55 pm
Getting a faster rail route on paths where rail is already the mode of choice, and is gaining, (Melbourne to Perth and Darwin) at the detriment of Adelide (more B-Double and C-Tripple truck movememnts) is not good for SA in my view.
SA is asleep at the wheel as far as rail is concerned, and we are going to pay in lost activity. For decades it has been a slow death as one by one passenger rail, then freight lines close. It wont affect our ability to get produce out of the state, but where we will loose is when Victoria, who are franticly upgrading their western rail links will nip across the border, and provide rail access to their nearest port. Loss of transport jobs, loss of rail maintenance, loss of port handling jobs. More road maintenance for SA, more traffic accidents. It very definatly is not good for SA in the long term and both parties should be held accountable.

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[VIS] Re: Interstate Trains at Adelaide Railway Station

#99 Post by rev » Tue Aug 13, 2019 5:06 pm

claybro wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 4:48 pm
rhino wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 12:55 pm
Getting a faster rail route on paths where rail is already the mode of choice, and is gaining, (Melbourne to Perth and Darwin) at the detriment of Adelide (more B-Double and C-Tripple truck movememnts) is not good for SA in my view.
SA is asleep at the wheel as far as rail is concerned, and we are going to pay in lost activity. For decades it has been a slow death as one by one passenger rail, then freight lines close. It wont affect our ability to get produce out of the state, but where we will loose is when Victoria, who are franticly upgrading their western rail links will nip across the border, and provide rail access to their nearest port. Loss of transport jobs, loss of rail maintenance, loss of port handling jobs. More road maintenance for SA, more traffic accidents. It very definatly is not good for SA in the long term and both parties should be held accountable.
Come on, you know vision, common sense and an increased pace of progress are frowned upon in SA, even by some on this forum.

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[VIS] Re: Interstate Trains at Adelaide Railway Station

#100 Post by Aidan » Fri Aug 23, 2019 12:29 am

rhino wrote:While I agree that Adelaide is definitely big enough to be a significant freight origin/destination in it's own right, in today's world of just-in-time deliveries (rather than warehousing), where time is money, the extra time taken to deliver to Adelaide by rail will, I believe, lose market share to road transport, necessitating a re-think of the solution in the not-so-distant future.
Your belief is based on the false assumption that the system of just-in-time deliveries is all about speed. In reality it's about reliability.
I don't see much advantage in Penfield over Regency Park from a rail point of view - once the detour off the through-line has been made, it probably makes more sense to get the freight as central to Adelaide as possible, to shorten the truck-run for the last phase of the delivery.
It depends how much freight is going to Adelaide. For some of the trains going further, the detour would be an unnecessary expense as well as adding to the journey time.
There are still, I believe, some low bridges in Melbourne which still make double-stacking on the current line impossible. This problem can be solved in Adelaide as easily as it can be solved in Melbourne. And tunnell floors can be lowered. They lowered the rail to allow double stacking trough Port Augusta years ago, and they lowered the freeway under the bridge at Crafers too. This is do-able stuff.
Lowering the track through tunnels is far more expensive than under bridges. It can be done, but it's very expensive, and it's worth taking the opportunity to switch to a flatter route instead.
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[VIS] Re: Interstate Trains at Adelaide Railway Station

#101 Post by Aidan » Fri Aug 23, 2019 1:17 am

SBD,
There are many regional silos in SA that are served by rail. AIUI in recent years there has been a trend to truck more of the the grain to silos on the main (Adelaide to Melbourne) line rather than the Mallee line which doesn't allow such heavy loads.

About thirty years ago, AN closed some of their lines in the Riverland and instead opened an intermodal terminal at Loxton. It was a commercial failure, as once the freight was on the road, it was far more convenient to truck it to truck it all the way to Adelaide.
Just build it wrote:Bye Union Hall. I'll see you in another life, when we are both cats.

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[VIS] Re: Interstate Trains at Adelaide Railway Station

#102 Post by kymbosa » Sat Sep 21, 2019 7:28 am

I took the Overland to Melbourne last Friday. This was the first trip by rail (long distance) i has done in and out of Keswick for years.

To say the station is under used is being nice.

The line within the station are shocking and need to be re-done, (if you head down there when a train is in, you’ll see what I mean).

A few things that has me puzzled about the service, why do you need to be there 1hr to 30mins before departing. In Europe you show up, 5 min before departing and you are on.

Sitting around down there before boarding is silly and a waste of staff resources.

Overall the trip was great, and I arrived in Melbs refreshed and ready to roll. Normally after a day of driving I am flat and tried.

Here’s my video of the day! Comments, feedback would be great.

https://youtu.be/vE01V0vfHls

Cheers.
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[VIS] Re: Interstate Trains at Adelaide Railway Station

#103 Post by Spotto » Sat Sep 21, 2019 10:07 am

kymbosa wrote:
Sat Sep 21, 2019 7:28 am
A few things that has me puzzled about the service, why do you need to be there 1hr to 30mins before departing. In Europe you show up, 5 min before departing and you are on.
People turn up late for check in at airports, who's to say the same thing doesn't happen for trains? "Well sir/madam we do recommend getting here up to 1 hour before departure (i.e. It's your fault for getting here late, don't try blaming us!)"

Also, they need time to load people on, especially if they're slower (seriously though, who else other than OAPs can afford The Ghan or Indian Pacific). They'd want to depart on schedule.
kymbosa wrote:
Sat Sep 21, 2019 7:28 am
Sitting around down there before boarding is silly and a waste of staff resources.
That's how they encourage you to buy things. Gift shop, cafe; if you're bored you're likely to browse.

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[VIS] Re: Interstate Trains at Adelaide Railway Station

#104 Post by SBD » Sat Sep 21, 2019 10:22 am

Spotto wrote:
Sat Sep 21, 2019 10:07 am
kymbosa wrote:
Sat Sep 21, 2019 7:28 am
A few things that has me puzzled about the service, why do you need to be there 1hr to 30mins before departing. In Europe you show up, 5 min before departing and you are on.
People turn up late for check in at airports, who's to say the same thing doesn't happen for trains? "Well sir/madam we do recommend getting here up to 1 hour before departure (i.e. It's your fault for getting here late, don't try blaming us!)"

Also, they need time to load people on, especially if they're slower (seriously though, who else other than OAPs can afford The Ghan or Indian Pacific). They'd want to depart on schedule.
kymbosa wrote:
Sat Sep 21, 2019 7:28 am
Sitting around down there before boarding is silly and a waste of staff resources.
That's how they encourage you to buy things. Gift shop, cafe; if you're bored you're likely to browse.
With online checkin and carry-on baggage only, you really only have to be at the airport less than 30 minutes before departure, and some of that is consumed in the security line, as long as you are at the gate 10-15 minutes before scheduled departure.

If airlines can handle baggage in 30-45 minutes, I don't see why it should be any harder for railways. I'd say it's mostly that the staff are now out of practice and providing a "premium experience" rather than a transport service. Airlines have gone the other way - it's about getting people from outside of one airport to outside of another one as easily (for them) as possible.

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[VIS] Re: Interstate Trains at Adelaide Railway Station

#105 Post by kymbosa » Sat Sep 21, 2019 7:30 pm

Spotto wrote:
Sat Sep 21, 2019 10:07 am
kymbosa wrote:
Sat Sep 21, 2019 7:28 am
A few things that has me puzzled about the service, why do you need to be there 1hr to 30mins before departing. In Europe you show up, 5 min before departing and you are on.
People turn up late for check in at airports, who's to say the same thing doesn't happen for trains? "Well sir/madam we do recommend getting here up to 1 hour before departure (i.e. It's your fault for getting here late, don't try blaming us!)"

Also, they need time to load people on, especially if they're slower (seriously though, who else other than OAPs can afford The Ghan or Indian Pacific). They'd want to depart on schedule.
kymbosa wrote:
Sat Sep 21, 2019 7:28 am
Sitting around down there before boarding is silly and a waste of staff resources.
That's how they encourage you to buy things. Gift shop, cafe; if you're bored you're likely to browse.
That’s all good and well, but the cafe is pointless when you buy Red Premium as food is available for free on the train.

The gift shop/mag shop is closed when the Overland is at the station.

In Europe you show up 10mins before the train and you get on and leave. Why do we have to make it the way we do here?

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