SA Budget 2016: Adelaide tramline to be extended to East End

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claybro
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Re: SA Budget 2016: Adelaide tramline to be extended to East

#151 Post by claybro » Tue Feb 21, 2017 6:29 pm

I've possibly asked this before, and forgotten the outcome, but why cant we piggy back on to the "Made in Melbourne" trams with their next order?

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Re: SA Budget 2016: Adelaide tramline to be extended to East

#152 Post by rubberman » Tue Feb 21, 2017 6:35 pm

rev wrote:Also re the "second hand trams" we are getting, wouldn't it also be cheaper to operate them from a maintenance perspective?
We have two types of trams, that's two types of components and hours/maintenance schedules/routines etc.
Adding potentially a third type/class would increase operating costs.
Maybe I'm wrong, I'm thinking of it from a military perspective with equipment.
That's very true rev. Very true.

So, when in the reasonably near future we get another 50-60 trams for the main system, we will have 50-60 new trams of some type, then 21 Flexitys, then 9 Citadis.

So, which type of tram should we NOT buy more of for exactly the reasons you state?

Or we could do some homework now, seek out the best value for money tram available, buy 3 of them now, and then get more of the same when it comes to the major tender.

Of course, if the Government has no intention at all of expanding the tram network other than a token 800m every election, then Citadis purchase makes sense.

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Re: SA Budget 2016: Adelaide tramline to be extended to East

#153 Post by rubberman » Tue Feb 21, 2017 6:39 pm

claybro wrote:I've possibly asked this before, and forgotten the outcome, but why cant we piggy back on to the "Made in Melbourne" trams with their next order?
We could...if we planned ahead. The delivery lead time is quite long.
We could also use Whyalla rails for most of the tram track...if we planned ahead. (Large swathes of Melbourne used this sort of rail for its trams in the street).

There's a pattern here. :hilarious:

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Re: SA Budget 2016: Adelaide tramline to be extended to East

#154 Post by Norman » Tue Feb 21, 2017 7:24 pm

Please tell me, which company seriously considers an order for just 3 trams? We have always either purchased ours second hand (Citadis) or piggy backed off others (Flexity).

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Re: SA Budget 2016: Adelaide tramline to be extended to East

#155 Post by adelaide transport » Tue Feb 21, 2017 7:27 pm

claybro wrote:I've possibly asked this before, and forgotten the outcome, but why cant we piggy back on to the "Made in Melbourne" trams with their next order?
For starters their trams are wider and longer ,our stops are nowhere near long enough. They currently have a full order book at their Dandenong plant,and we could be waiting a long time assuming that they could build trams for Adelaide that meet our needs.

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Re: SA Budget 2016: Adelaide tramline to be extended to East

#156 Post by fishinajar » Tue Feb 21, 2017 8:11 pm

rubberman wrote:...So, when in the reasonably near future we get another 50-60 trams for the main system, we will have 50-60 new trams of some type, then 21 Flexitys, then 9 Citadis.

So, which type of tram should we NOT buy more of for exactly the reasons you state?

Or we could do some homework now, seek out the best value for money tram available, buy 3 of them now, and then get more of the same when it comes to the major tender.

Of course, if the Government has no intention at all of expanding the tram network other than a token 800m every election, then Citadis purchase makes sense.
Disagree. If we buy 3 from brand x, unless we sign the contract for a future ~50, they then have us over a barrel when we come back for another ~50. vs we buy 3 Citadis, then we have all the power when we ask for tenders for 50+ trams.

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Re: SA Budget 2016: Adelaide tramline to be extended to East

#157 Post by rubberman » Tue Feb 21, 2017 8:46 pm

Norman wrote:Please tell me, which company seriously considers an order for just 3 trams? We have always either purchased ours second hand (Citadis) or piggy backed off others (Flexity).
I would imagine that any of the big manufacturers would. Once they're set up to make a particular model of tram, it's just a matter of squeezing another one out. It's not like they are making 3 unique trams to only suit Adelaide. Iirc, the city of Most in the Czech Republic bought just one tram from one of the local manufacturers. Obviously you pay more for a small number, but there's all sorts of ways and means of ownership. It's like aircraft. You want 3 Boeing 737s, you can buy them or dry or wet lease them, or buy some and have options for more like Qantas did with the 787. We now live in a sophisticated world where we can do all this and save a heap of money, while getting the best technology we can as Qantas did. The same deals are available for buying trams. We could lease 3 with options for 50 more, getting the cheapest price and best technology.

Why should we buy century old technology for higher cost? Why spend $15m, when we could get something better for less?

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Re: SA Budget 2016: Adelaide tramline to be extended to East

#158 Post by rubberman » Tue Feb 21, 2017 8:57 pm

fishinajar wrote:
rubberman wrote:...So, when in the reasonably near future we get another 50-60 trams for the main system, we will have 50-60 new trams of some type, then 21 Flexitys, then 9 Citadis.

So, which type of tram should we NOT buy more of for exactly the reasons you state?

Or we could do some homework now, seek out the best value for money tram available, buy 3 of them now, and then get more of the same when it comes to the major tender.

Of course, if the Government has no intention at all of expanding the tram network other than a token 800m every election, then Citadis purchase makes sense.
Disagree. If we buy 3 from brand x, unless we sign the contract for a future ~50, they then have us over a barrel when we come back for another ~50. vs we buy 3 Citadis, then we have all the power when we ask for tenders for 50+ trams.
There's all sorts of ways round that. Eg Qantas bought some planes with options for more built into the contract. Nothing to stop the SA Government doing the same. Or lease 3 trams with a fixed price option to buy. Easy peasy. 8)

Point is, why would we want to pay more money for technologically outdated vehicles if we don't have to? :roll:

Having said all that, nobody will take any notice of the debate here. It's more a case that if the Government is doing this, and the Opposition can't do any better, then the Government will get back in and bit by bit, we'll probably end up with a Citadis fleet and a bunch of laughing Spaniards in Madrid who can't believe their luck. If on the other hand, the Opposition has got even a spark of competence, they will fry the government over this. Who knows if the Opposition has what it takes? Personally, I hope they can dredge up a better and cheaper plan for introducing tramways. It wouldn't be hard, but I'm not holding my breath. It's not as if votes on this forum will count for much, eh? :mrgreen:

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Re: SA Budget 2016: Adelaide tramline to be extended to East

#159 Post by dbl96 » Wed Feb 22, 2017 12:28 pm

Llessur2002 wrote:
timtam20292 wrote:
dbl96 wrote:
Just out of interest, where is all this speculation about the intersection only being constructed in part coming from? All the information released by the government to this point would seem to indicate that there is going to be a full intersection at KWS/NT, and that allowing for the construction of such an intersection is the primary reason why the line is being extended to the Festival Centre at this point in time.
I've been wondering the same thing about this speculation. :?
I spoke directly to one of the DPTI project managers at the information stall they had in Rundle Mall last week. I asked him about the Grand Union Junction shown on the plan and asked him if that would definitely be implemented. He said no and that “some take on a half union will be the likely outcome due to budget constraints”. I presume Norman had a similar conversation, although it appears we were told slightly different things about what parts of the junction would and wouldn’t be implemented.

Either way the guy I spoke to sounded confident that the full junction was not on the cards.
Any idea why they think the full intersection would be so much more expensive? They are already digging the whole thing up, and surely a switch isn't so expensive, it's a pretty basic piece of technology which has been around as long as rail networks have.

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Re: SA Budget 2016: Adelaide tramline to be extended to East

#160 Post by [Shuz] » Wed Feb 22, 2017 1:25 pm

Another thing that you're all forgetting is that the current tram depot is pretty much at maximum stabling capacity. Any new extension out to the Parade or the Airport or wherever will likely be done in full as it will require the construction of a new tram depot for stabling and maintenance of the tram fleet to service that line. The purchase of 3 Citadis fits in well within the current stabling and maintenance capacity and requirements. I have a feeling that the trams will probably be committed to a particular royte; i.e the Citadis may well service Entertainment Centre to East End, while the Flexitys will service Glenelg to Festival Theatre. Any new route will probably be serviced by a different model or type of tram and it makes sense that the new depot would have the maintenance facilities in place for that particular tram type.
Any views and opinions expressed are of my own, and do not reflect the views or opinions of any organisation of which I have an affiliation with.

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Re: SA Budget 2016: Adelaide tramline to be extended to East

#161 Post by dbl96 » Thu Feb 23, 2017 12:43 pm

[Shuz] wrote:Another thing that you're all forgetting is that the current tram depot is pretty much at maximum stabling capacity. Any new extension out to the Parade or the Airport or wherever will likely be done in full as it will require the construction of a new tram depot for stabling and maintenance of the tram fleet to service that line. The purchase of 3 Citadis fits in well within the current stabling and maintenance capacity and requirements. I have a feeling that the trams will probably be committed to a particular royte; i.e the Citadis may well service Entertainment Centre to East End, while the Flexitys will service Glenelg to Festival Theatre. Any new route will probably be serviced by a different model or type of tram and it makes sense that the new depot would have the maintenance facilities in place for that particular tram type.
It's hard to imagine where they could have a stabling facility on the Parade Route. On the other hand, there would be much more potential for such facilities in the vicinity of the airport. Perhaps this will influence the decision about which line to build first.

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