[PRO] Torrens Road Grade Separation

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[PRO] Re: [PRO] Re: Torrens Road Grade Separation

#16 Post by SBD » Wed Jun 19, 2019 12:35 pm

rev wrote:
Wed Jun 19, 2019 9:48 am
SBD wrote:
Tue Jun 18, 2019 11:55 pm
ml69 wrote:
Tue Jun 18, 2019 11:35 pm
I

Can’t see how the Torrens Road bridge could possibly work. How could you then connect to Churchill Rd unless that was on a bridge too. Then starts getting complicated.

I think the final design will have a long rail underpass stretching from Hawker St to Ovingham station, thereby eliminating 2 level crossings in one go on our busiest rail line.
At least until the rail component of GlobeLink is built (and maybe anyway), that crossing carries the standard gauge freight line as well. Considering there is no significant gradient between Adelaide and Port Augusta, any raising or lowering is going to require a very long ramp to ensure that the middle of a train is not lifted off the track in the valley. I suspect that it would be far easier to come up with designs that don't require moving the standard gauge track very far. The only really hard bit would be right turns from Churchill to Torrens.
I think it would be difficult for a bridge. It would need to start further up closer to Park Terrace, the end of Churchill road will need to be raised as well.
The problem is that at that end of Churchill road there is some properties with a service road. How will that connect?
You then have the Bombay Bicycle Club and bottle shop which will be cut off from Torrens Road as Guthrie street would no longer be accessible. That will severely impact their business. Drayton street and East Street would lose access to Torrens Road as well, and probably Hayman street. That will cut off a number of businesses and properties from Torrens road, as that's where the decline/incline of a bridge would likely start/end.

What are they going to do, build a bridge using the reserves on the northern side to go over the rail lines, and keep a narrower Torrens Road below with the crossing?
The level crossing would be closed (except possibly pedestrians). I'd expect something like a Torrens Road bridge over the railway, and Churchill Road/route A22 under/around the east side of the bridge. Left turns out of Churchill and right turns in would follow roughly their current gradients

I haven't worked out how to handle the two lanes that turn right from Churchill Road into Torrens Road. They could be lifted to traffic lights on the bridge/approach, or possibly pass under Torrens Road then have a steep(?) ramp to go over the bridge.

Bombay Bicycle Club would perhaps have its address changed to Churchill Road to reduce confusion. If a ramp can exist for the right turn from Churchill Rd, it would likely also work for a left from Guthrie St.

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[PRO] Re: [PRO] Re: Torrens Road Grade Separation

#17 Post by rev » Wed Jun 19, 2019 12:57 pm

SBD wrote:
Wed Jun 19, 2019 12:35 pm
rev wrote:
Wed Jun 19, 2019 9:48 am
SBD wrote:
Tue Jun 18, 2019 11:55 pm


At least until the rail component of GlobeLink is built (and maybe anyway), that crossing carries the standard gauge freight line as well. Considering there is no significant gradient between Adelaide and Port Augusta, any raising or lowering is going to require a very long ramp to ensure that the middle of a train is not lifted off the track in the valley. I suspect that it would be far easier to come up with designs that don't require moving the standard gauge track very far. The only really hard bit would be right turns from Churchill to Torrens.
I think it would be difficult for a bridge. It would need to start further up closer to Park Terrace, the end of Churchill road will need to be raised as well.
The problem is that at that end of Churchill road there is some properties with a service road. How will that connect?
You then have the Bombay Bicycle Club and bottle shop which will be cut off from Torrens Road as Guthrie street would no longer be accessible. That will severely impact their business. Drayton street and East Street would lose access to Torrens Road as well, and probably Hayman street. That will cut off a number of businesses and properties from Torrens road, as that's where the decline/incline of a bridge would likely start/end.

What are they going to do, build a bridge using the reserves on the northern side to go over the rail lines, and keep a narrower Torrens Road below with the crossing?
The level crossing would be closed (except possibly pedestrians). I'd expect something like a Torrens Road bridge over the railway, and Churchill Road/route A22 under/around the east side of the bridge. Left turns out of Churchill and right turns in would follow roughly their current gradients

I haven't worked out how to handle the two lanes that turn right from Churchill Road into Torrens Road. They could be lifted to traffic lights on the bridge/approach, or possibly pass under Torrens Road then have a steep(?) ramp to go over the bridge.

Bombay Bicycle Club would perhaps have its address changed to Churchill Road to reduce confusion. If a ramp can exist for the right turn from Churchill Rd, it would likely also work for a left from Guthrie St.
I think what they're going to do is going to be quite a significant change that involves the Churchill/Torrens intersection hence the cost.
The intersection it self isn't high enough and the Churchill road part of the intersection is on a decline too. So it may well end up being a raised intersection that continues west on Torrens over the train lines and then drops back down towards Chief. And that's where the Bombay gets affected as exit from the bottle shop is removed and Guthrie st gets cut off so entry to the bottle shop and one access point to parking at the back of Bombay is lost. I doubt they'd put off/on ramps for Guthrie street.
If you're coming from Churchill Road or heading east along Torrens you already have to go up towards Park Tce and turn right into the access road to get to the Bombay.

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[PRO] Re: Torrens Road Grade Separation

#18 Post by ChillyPhilly » Wed Jun 19, 2019 1:44 pm

I just went through the crossing on the train and it's certainly an interesting equation.

There are big factors affecting both road and rail: the gradient and nearby intersections for road, and leaving enough height to allow for double-stacked containers.

I'm almost inclined to think we'll see a rail bridge like the one over South Road: rising and falling immediately after/before intersections (Hawker Street and Pym Street in the instance of this new project) at either end.
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[PRO] Re: Torrens Road Grade Separation

#19 Post by [Shuz] » Wed Jun 19, 2019 2:20 pm

A rail bridge won't work because of the gradient that freight trains require, which are different to passenger trains - which can handle steeper slopes.
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[PRO] Re: Torrens Road Grade Separation

#20 Post by SBD » Wed Jun 19, 2019 2:44 pm

ChillyPhilly wrote:
Wed Jun 19, 2019 1:44 pm
I just went through the crossing on the train and it's certainly an interesting equation.

There are big factors affecting both road and rail: the gradient and nearby intersections for road, and leaving enough height to allow for double-stacked containers.

I'm almost inclined to think we'll see a rail bridge like the one over South Road: rising and falling immediately after/before intersections (Hawker Street and Pym Street in the instance of this new project) at either end.
Raising the railway to clear four level crossings (Hawker Street, Torrens Road, Belford Avenue, Pym Street) so it is elevated through predominantly residential areas would be unlikely to be popular, and the gradients to get under the Park terrace and Regency Road bridges might be short too. Lowering it over that distance is probably acceptable for gradients and residents affected by noise, but may not be acceptable to ARTC or its customers for how long it would need to be closed to do that.

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[PRO] Re: Torrens Road Grade Separation

#21 Post by mawsonguy » Wed Jun 19, 2019 5:21 pm

Perhaps the answer is to build 2 separate but parallel bridges using the existing reserves on the north side to allow for left turns from Churchill Rd into Torrens Rd and from Torrens Rd into Churchill Rd. The existing right hand lanes for traffic turning right from Torrens Rd into Churchill Rd would then continue down the hill before tucking under the nothern bridge.
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[PRO] Re: Torrens Road Grade Separation

#22 Post by ralmin » Wed Jun 19, 2019 6:04 pm

Mawsonguy, if I understand your diagram, would the right turns from Churchill into Torrens pass under the northern bridge, and then up a ramp to join the southern bridge over the railway?

I found a paper that says:
The maximum loading height for wagons between Adelaide and Perth/Darwin is 6.3m (or 6.5m with special arrangements), which equates to the ARA maximum rolling stock infrastructure outline of 7.1m once allowance is made for a dynamic envelope around the loading.
If so, the ramp may need to climb to about 8 metres above the railway to allow clearance for double-stacked freight trains as well as the thickness of the bridge deck. The start of the ramp would already be about 2 metres above the level of the railway line, which means it needs to climb another 6 metres over about 60 metres in length, making a 10% gradient.

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[PRO] Re: Torrens Road Grade Separation

#23 Post by aaronjameslange » Wed Jun 19, 2019 8:01 pm

ralmin wrote:
Wed Jun 19, 2019 6:04 pm

If so, the ramp may need to climb to about 8 metres above the railway to allow clearance for double-stacked freight trains as well as the thickness of the bridge deck. The start of the ramp would already be about 2 metres above the level of the railway line, which means it needs to climb another 6 metres over about 60 metres in length, making a 10% gradient.
Can i repeat PD2/20's earlier comment
PD2/20 wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 10:27 pm
double-stack containers won't be a consideration as all such traffic starts from Islington Depot and heads north. The tunnels in the Adelaide hills on the Melbourne line preclude running double-stack containers.

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[PRO] Re: Torrens Road Grade Separation

#24 Post by PD2/20 » Wed Jun 19, 2019 8:53 pm

aaronjameslange wrote:
Wed Jun 19, 2019 8:01 pm
ralmin wrote:
Wed Jun 19, 2019 6:04 pm

If so, the ramp may need to climb to about 8 metres above the railway to allow clearance for double-stacked freight trains as well as the thickness of the bridge deck. The start of the ramp would already be about 2 metres above the level of the railway line, which means it needs to climb another 6 metres over about 60 metres in length, making a 10% gradient.
Can i repeat PD2/20's earlier comment
PD2/20 wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 10:27 pm
double-stack containers won't be a consideration as all such traffic starts from Islington Depot and heads north. The tunnels in the Adelaide hills on the Melbourne line preclude running double-stack containers.
To be fair the paper cited by ralmin (which seems to date from c. 2005) did assess what would be involved to enable double-stacking between Melbourne and Adelaide by several routes, but found that the economics didn't stack up!

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[PRO] Re: Torrens Road Grade Separation

#25 Post by 85trainfan » Thu Jun 20, 2019 10:17 pm

mawsonguys sketch is pretty much on the money(from older plans for this intersection), the northern bridge is alittle further out thou with a curve in it, to allow west bound traffic from Churchill Rd to join up to Torrens Rd,Churchill Rd traffic dives under the Northern Torrens Rd bridge and comes up between the 2 sides. Road over rail, with rail being lowered slightly to offset the gradients required on the western side of the train line and to future proof for double stacking.
Side note regarding the double stacking, All new infrastructure over ARTC interstate lines must have a 7mtr clearance (at last check it was that) to future proof for any double stacking, regardless if if implemented on that route or not
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[PRO] Re: Torrens Road Grade Separation

#26 Post by Thunderstruck » Wed Jun 26, 2019 12:52 am

I'm baffled as to why they can't find some money for the Park terrace crossing, pretty much the worst in Adelaide. Brighton probably #2
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[PRO] Re: Torrens Road Grade Separation

#27 Post by SBD » Wed Jun 26, 2019 1:17 pm

Thunderstruck wrote:
Wed Jun 26, 2019 12:52 am
I'm baffled as to why they can't find some money for the Park terrace crossing, pretty much the worst in Adelaide. Brighton probably #2
Torrens Road has more road traffic than Park Terrace according to the Traffic Volume data at data SA. Perhaps that is because drivers find less direct routes to avoid that crossing, but that could be true for them both. However Brighton Road has even more, so that's not the only criterion.

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[PRO] Re: Torrens Road Grade Separation

#28 Post by ralmin » Wed Jun 26, 2019 7:47 pm

I'm not surprised the Torrens Road level crossing sees higher traffic than the one on Park Terrace Salisbury, because the Torrens Road one is on the fastest route to or from the city for commuters living in a fair sized residential area. Whereas, with two equally good routes to and from the city in Salisbury Highway and Main North Road, the only traffic that would choose to cross the level crossing at Park Terrace is cross-suburb traffic, not those commuting to or from the city.

To test this, I set Google Maps to calculate driving directions from Brompton to Adelaide, and also from Salisbury to Adelaide, and vice versa, and in both cases dragged the endpoint marker around to various locations on both sides of the level crossing. I suspect the Google Maps algorithm has a built-in aversion to using each level crossing because of the potential delay it adds to any journey. For the Torrens Road crossing, when the endpoint was in parts of Renown Park, Devon Park, Dudley Park, Croydon Park, Ridleyton and Brompton, it selected a route via the level crossing despite the delay it causes. For the Salisbury crossing, there were no locations for which the fastest route included crossing the level crossing. In all cases where the endpoint was to the west of the crossing, it chose a route via Salisbury Highway, and in all cases where the endpoint was to the east of the crossing, it chose a route via Main North Road.

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[PRO] Re: Torrens Road Grade Separation

#29 Post by SBD » Thu Jun 27, 2019 11:40 am

ralmin wrote:
Wed Jun 26, 2019 7:47 pm
I'm not surprised the Torrens Road level crossing sees higher traffic than the one on Park Terrace Salisbury, because the Torrens Road one is on the fastest route to or from the city for commuters living in a fair sized residential area. Whereas, with two equally good routes to and from the city in Salisbury Highway and Main North Road, the only traffic that would choose to cross the level crossing at Park Terrace is cross-suburb traffic, not those commuting to or from the city.

To test this, I set Google Maps to calculate driving directions from Brompton to Adelaide, and also from Salisbury to Adelaide, and vice versa, and in both cases dragged the endpoint marker around to various locations on both sides of the level crossing. I suspect the Google Maps algorithm has a built-in aversion to using each level crossing because of the potential delay it adds to any journey. For the Torrens Road crossing, when the endpoint was in parts of Renown Park, Devon Park, Dudley Park, Croydon Park, Ridleyton and Brompton, it selected a route via the level crossing despite the delay it causes. For the Salisbury crossing, there were no locations for which the fastest route included crossing the level crossing. In all cases where the endpoint was to the west of the crossing, it chose a route via Salisbury Highway, and in all cases where the endpoint was to the east of the crossing, it chose a route via Main North Road.
The flawed assumption is that the Adelaide city centre is the centre of the universe for people living in mid-outer suburbs.

Try endpoints such as Salisbury High School, Parabanks Shopping centre, Port Adelaide/Osborne, or local employment areas in Salisbury Plain or Salisbury South..

Google certainly shows an aversion to the Park Terrace level crossing when it recommends turning left off Waterloo Corner Road onto Salisbury Highway so it uses the underpass to get into Salisbury instead of the level crossing, or goes round to the north and crosses the freight railway on Bagster Road and the Gawler line at Commercial Road.

Why should Torrens Road level crossing have more traffic when almost all of the catchment area you described is close to a railway station at each end of the journey. The Salisbury endpoints often require two bus trips with a changeover at Salisbury Interchange, but the buses use the underpass not the level crossing, so the journey could be six times longer by bus than by car.

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[PRO] Re: Torrens Road Grade Separation

#30 Post by 85trainfan » Sun Jun 30, 2019 3:23 pm

The Bus routes over the Park Tce crossing were only changed after the Bus Vs Train accident a few years ago. Till then most bus routes went across the crossing.
The 2 major problems for the Park Tce grade separation is the grade for the Freight trains (short distance form Salisbury highway overpass), and the proximity of the Road junctions either side of the rail corridor on Park Tce
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