News & Discussion: National Broadband Network

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rubberman
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Re: News & Discussion: National Broadband Network

#526 Post by rubberman » Tue Nov 10, 2015 10:26 pm

Wayno wrote:guys, forget the property 'marketability' thing - at least for a few years. I'm loathe to say 'property prices' because there will always be a cross-section of the population who don't really care about the NBN or don't get it.

There definitely won't be a short-term property impact. The impact will come in 10+ years when the next generation of internet novelty ideas firmly become everyday needs. This will happen, just as mobile phones and general internet connectivity are ingrained in everyday life. They are almost human rights!
I think we are talking at cross purposes Wayno.

I agree that this will not become important for some time, and ten years is as good an estimate as any. After all, it is becoming an issue in the US and the UK, with price differentials and people walking out of potential rentals because of poor broadband access. In Australia, we are usually ten years behind them, so you are close to the mark, I think.

Furthermore, it is of no relevance to anyone who is not looking to purchase a house or apartment...at the moment.

However, and this is where it is important, anyone who is considering buying a house now, would consider all relevant factors before making an offer. So, if there's a sewerage easement, or a plan to add extra lanes to the road in front of the house, just because there's not likely to have something happen in the next ten years doesn't mean the purchaser and potential seller shouldn't think about it. Whether a house has FTTN or FTTP is something that in the UK and US experience will affect the future value of the property in ten years when we catch up with those countries. The point is, that if someone thinks about this now, when buying a house, then in ten years, they stand to profit, or avoid a big loss. If someone in that situation waits ten years to think about it, they will be too late. It's be like finding out that the Council is going to add an extra lane each way to the road out the front and cut down the trees. Should have researched that before buying, just like broadband access.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/prop ... rking.html

An excerpt from the link above:

...And estate agents have revealed house adverts showing broadband connection speeds secure double the number of viewings.

One in five homebuyers have checked broadband speeds when evaluating a house before they have even walked around the area.

And one in ten have rejected a potential new home because it had a poor connection, the study of 2,000 homebuyers found.

Knowing a property has good broadband speeds is routinely ranked as more important than off-street parking, access to shops and a nearby pub.

The local road network, public transport and mobile phone signal strength also ranked lower.

Furthermore, 54 per cent considered broadband speed before moving in but just 37 per cent looked at the crime rate...


http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB110643412 ... 2897822358

If I'm wrong, and we don't follow US and UK experience, no loss. But if I'm right, there's a fair bit of money at stake.

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Re: News & Discussion: National Broadband Network

#527 Post by Waewick » Wed Nov 11, 2015 4:33 pm

PD2/20 wrote:
Waewick wrote:...

I'm curious though, do we have list of who will be FTTN and who won't.
Now it is not just FTTP v FTTN. HFC has been thrown into the mix. Significant parts of Metro Adelaide are now slated to have HFC. See http://www.nbnco.com.au/learn-about-the ... -plan.html. This listing does not include premises already connected and so FTTP does not appear here.
I'm in a proposed HFC zone - had a bit of a read that they are still in testing phase...so I won't hold my breath for the roll out in 2016

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Re: News & Discussion: National Broadband Network

#528 Post by Vee » Wed Jan 06, 2016 4:13 pm

NBN FTTN kills off ADSL for Adelaide metro customer, to be replaced with satellite
The NBN company has confirmed plans to terminate the ADSL connection of a customer living in metropolitan Adelaide and replace it with a high-latency satellite connection, due to the installation of Fibre to the Node services to neighbours in the same street.

South Australian Matthew Wilkinson lives within sight of the Adelaide central business district in the Adelaide Hills region. He currently has access to an ADSL2+ fixed-line broadband connection.

Wilkinson’s suburb was originally slated to receive a full Fibre to the Premises rollout under the previous Labor approach to the National Broadband Network....
Read on.
Delimiter:
https://delimiter.com.au/2016/01/05/nbn ... satellite/

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Re: News & Discussion: National Broadband Network

#529 Post by rubberman » Thu Jan 07, 2016 9:47 am

Vee wrote:NBN FTTN kills off ADSL for Adelaide metro customer, to be replaced with satellite
The NBN company has confirmed plans to terminate the ADSL connection of a customer living in metropolitan Adelaide and replace it with a high-latency satellite connection, due to the installation of Fibre to the Node services to neighbours in the same street.

South Australian Matthew Wilkinson lives within sight of the Adelaide central business district in the Adelaide Hills region. He currently has access to an ADSL2+ fixed-line broadband connection.

Wilkinson’s suburb was originally slated to receive a full Fibre to the Premises rollout under the previous Labor approach to the National Broadband Network....
Read on.
Delimiter:
https://delimiter.com.au/2016/01/05/nbn ... satellite/
The guy lives in an electorate that voted for a political party pushing fttn.

He should be taking this up with his MP from that party.

Folks, it's choices and consequences. There was plenty of advice out there before the last election about this. So if people vote in a particular way, they have to accept the outcomes. No sympathy.

I have a relative in the same boat. He had red hot contempt for the original fttp proposal, trumpeted how much cheaper the fttn was going to be, and it would only be $5000 if he wanted to upgrade. Malcolm said so. :roll:

Now he is in a rage because his service will be lower than nearby suburbs, and it will decrease his house price...and they won't upgrade for $5000. But it's not his fault for choosing the wrong political party, nope, it's the lazy public service. :wallbash:

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Re: News & Discussion: National Broadband Network

#530 Post by Waewick » Thu Jan 07, 2016 11:05 am

it won't decrease his bloody house price, what a crock of bullshit.

I've spoken to half a dozen people buying houses, none of them even listed internet as an issue, people who worry small things like this will impact house prices likely have a shit house in the first place.

back on topic, it is bizzare, but this is where politics get frustrating - the Turnball Government needs to address things like this before the become issue, sure a simple test to see if the service will be worse is enough?

it is going to be an interesting election if this becomes a topic or both parties ignore it.

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Re: News & Discussion: National Broadband Network

#531 Post by rubberman » Thu Jan 07, 2016 1:51 pm

Waewick wrote:it won't decrease his bloody house price, what a crock of bullshit.

I've spoken to half a dozen people buying houses, none of them even listed internet as an issue, people who worry small things like this will impact house prices likely have a shit house in the first place.

back on topic, it is bizzare, but this is where politics get frustrating - the Turnball Government needs to address things like this before the become issue, sure a simple test to see if the service will be worse is enough?

it is going to be an interesting election if this becomes a topic or both parties ignore it.
*sigh*

The article quoted one guy who is outraged.

Next point, I said earlier up the page, and cited newspaper references where in the US and UK, lack of broadband DOES affect prices. However, since we are usually 10 years behind them in these matters, it's not going to show up much yet.

However, by that time it will be too late to position oneself to profit from it.

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Re: News & Discussion: National Broadband Network

#532 Post by Waewick » Thu Jan 07, 2016 2:36 pm

rubberman wrote:
Waewick wrote:it won't decrease his bloody house price, what a crock of bullshit.

I've spoken to half a dozen people buying houses, none of them even listed internet as an issue, people who worry small things like this will impact house prices likely have a shit house in the first place.

back on topic, it is bizzare, but this is where politics get frustrating - the Turnball Government needs to address things like this before the become issue, sure a simple test to see if the service will be worse is enough?

it is going to be an interesting election if this becomes a topic or both parties ignore it.
*sigh*

The article quoted one guy who is outraged.

Next point, I said earlier up the page, and cited newspaper references where in the US and UK, lack of broadband DOES affect prices. However, since we are usually 10 years behind them in these matters, it's not going to show up much yet.

However, by that time it will be too late to position oneself to profit from it.
yes, but we don't lack broadband. Even my ADSL2 which is slow isn't a huge issue for, I would estimate, 99% of the population.

as I said, NBN is going to be an interest side issue to the election, if either parties even discuss it.

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Re: News & Discussion: National Broadband Network

#533 Post by bits » Thu Jan 07, 2016 4:45 pm

Waewick wrote: yes, but we don't lack broadband. Even my ADSL2 which is slow isn't a huge issue for, I would estimate, 99% of the population.

"ADSL2" does not really define anything at all. It could be giving you speeds slower than dialup, it could be giving you speeds of 1mbit/sec which is absolutely horrible, it could be giving you the average speed of about 8-10mbit/sec which is horrible; or you might be a lucky one, live next door to the Telstra exchange and be getting 23mbit/sec which is still a very poor speed service by 2016 standards. All of which does not account for the typical 500-1000kbit/sec upload speeds which is unusable for many types of users today. Plus the reliability of adsl is very poor, it drops out often for many and it is impacted by noise on the line caused by neighbours.

ADSL technology is based on the fact things are not going to work 100% and to reduce speeds by avoiding troublesome frequencies either end of the line hopefully detected etc. It is a "best effort" service that has very little ability to guarantee service speeds or availability.

I dont think adsl2 is acceptable by 99% of the population, that is why we as a country of 22million are building the fttp/fttn network. We as a country already have adsl2 and have already decided it is not acceptable.
So the majority of people do not agree with you at all. The majority agree that we need to replace the already inadequate adsl2 network and build a network that is suitable for current and tomorrows needs.

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Re: News & Discussion: National Broadband Network

#534 Post by Waewick » Fri Jan 08, 2016 8:40 am

bits wrote:
Waewick wrote: yes, but we don't lack broadband. Even my ADSL2 which is slow isn't a huge issue for, I would estimate, 99% of the population.

"ADSL2" does not really define anything at all. It could be giving you speeds slower than dialup, it could be giving you speeds of 1mbit/sec which is absolutely horrible, it could be giving you the average speed of about 8-10mbit/sec which is horrible; or you might be a lucky one, live next door to the Telstra exchange and be getting 23mbit/sec which is still a very poor speed service by 2016 standards. All of which does not account for the typical 500-1000kbit/sec upload speeds which is unusable for many types of users today. Plus the reliability of adsl is very poor, it drops out often for many and it is impacted by noise on the line caused by neighbours.

ADSL technology is based on the fact things are not going to work 100% and to reduce speeds by avoiding troublesome frequencies either end of the line hopefully detected etc. It is a "best effort" service that has very little ability to guarantee service speeds or availability.

I dont think adsl2 is acceptable by 99% of the population, that is why we as a country of 22million are building the fttp/fttn network. We as a country already have adsl2 and have already decided it is not acceptable.
So the majority of people do not agree with you at all. The majority agree that we need to replace the already inadequate adsl2 network and build a network that is suitable for current and tomorrows needs.
We clearly have both overstated who is for and against NBN

I would suggest, the main beneficiaries of the NBN are regional and rural areas that simply didn't have the speeds. Also you can't talk for tomorrow as you simply do not know what tomorrow needs

Just for the record, I'm not against he NBN, I'm just sick of the hyperbole that comes out of peoples mouths about its benefits, which I am sure there will be benefits, but I suggest they are generally exaggerated at the moment.

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Re: News & Discussion: National Broadband Network

#535 Post by Archer » Fri Jan 08, 2016 9:11 am

Waewick wrote:
I would suggest, the main beneficiaries of the NBN are regional and rural areas that simply didn't have the speeds. Also you can't talk for tomorrow as you simply do not know what tomorrow needs

Just for the record, I'm not against he NBN, I'm just sick of the hyperbole that comes out of peoples mouths about its benefits, which I am sure there will be benefits, but I suggest they are generally exaggerated at the moment.
While the NBN is certainly of benefit to regional and rural areas, that statement completely ignores the inadequacy of the copper network and ADSL based services in Metro areas. The bottom line is there are large metro areas around the country that have ADSL that is woefully inadequate for thier needs. On top of that there are areas that are black spots where there is no ADSL and users are forced onto expensive wireless solutions to get Internet Access at all.

I've had the experience of having had ADSL in a metro suburb but having been on about 5km of copper and barely able to get 3Mbps down and usually less than 500Kbps up. while this is usable if all you want to do is browse the web, trying to do anything else was an extremely frustrating expereince. There is no way I could work from home consistently using that connection as I do now with the 50Mbps FTTP connection I am lucky enough to be using currently.

I also know of a businesses close to the city that struggles with ADSL connections every day (at least when I was working there) and would greatly welcome the affordable high speed connection the NBN would bring them.

I really think there are far more beneficiaries than you realise.

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Re: News & Discussion: National Broadband Network

#536 Post by realstretts » Fri Jan 08, 2016 11:14 am

Archer wrote:
Waewick wrote:
I would suggest, the main beneficiaries of the NBN are regional and rural areas that simply didn't have the speeds. Also you can't talk for tomorrow as you simply do not know what tomorrow needs

Just for the record, I'm not against he NBN, I'm just sick of the hyperbole that comes out of peoples mouths about its benefits, which I am sure there will be benefits, but I suggest they are generally exaggerated at the moment.
While the NBN is certainly of benefit to regional and rural areas, that statement completely ignores the inadequacy of the copper network and ADSL based services in Metro areas. The bottom line is there are large metro areas around the country that have ADSL that is woefully inadequate for thier needs. On top of that there are areas that are black spots where there is no ADSL and users are forced onto expensive wireless solutions to get Internet Access at all.

I've had the experience of having had ADSL in a metro suburb but having been on about 5km of copper and barely able to get 3Mbps down and usually less than 500Kbps up. while this is usable if all you want to do is browse the web, trying to do anything else was an extremely frustrating expereince. There is no way I could work from home consistently using that connection as I do now with the 50Mbps FTTP connection I am lucky enough to be using currently.

I also know of a businesses close to the city that struggles with ADSL connections every day (at least when I was working there) and would greatly welcome the affordable high speed connection the NBN would bring them.

I really think there are far more beneficiaries than you realise.
I live in Woodforde, approximately 8kms from the CBD as the crow flies. My house is in a blackspot and the only option for internet we have is Adam Internet (now defunct, bought out by iinet) WiMax service (if you can call it a service). My max speeds sit around 2-3mb/s, and I get maybe one day a week without disconnections, the other 6 days my internet disconnects randomly every 10 minutes or so.

Head 1km down the hill to my workplace, UniSA Magill and I have 68mb/s.

Recently ALOT of people have been selling up here and it is a tough sell simply because there is no functional, reliable and reasonably priced internet service in the area.

Our area is scheduled for NBN - well I think it is one of the lesser services but at least an upgrade in.... 2018.

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Re: News & Discussion: National Broadband Network

#537 Post by bits » Fri Jan 08, 2016 11:18 am

adsl2 is not acceptable in metro.
I had adsl2 at my house for about 6months before cancelling. My house is 5km from the nearest exchange and the speeds were around 1-2mbit but was extremely unreliable.

Many business struggle with the limited upload bandwidth blocking their ability to use remote access or cloud solutions.

It just isn't suitable for most users in 2016.

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Re: News & Discussion: National Broadband Network

#538 Post by Waewick » Fri Jan 08, 2016 11:29 am

Archer wrote:
Waewick wrote:
I would suggest, the main beneficiaries of the NBN are regional and rural areas that simply didn't have the speeds. Also you can't talk for tomorrow as you simply do not know what tomorrow needs

Just for the record, I'm not against he NBN, I'm just sick of the hyperbole that comes out of peoples mouths about its benefits, which I am sure there will be benefits, but I suggest they are generally exaggerated at the moment.
While the NBN is certainly of benefit to regional and rural areas, that statement completely ignores the inadequacy of the copper network and ADSL based services in Metro areas. The bottom line is there are large metro areas around the country that have ADSL that is woefully inadequate for thier needs. On top of that there are areas that are black spots where there is no ADSL and users are forced onto expensive wireless solutions to get Internet Access at all.

I've had the experience of having had ADSL in a metro suburb but having been on about 5km of copper and barely able to get 3Mbps down and usually less than 500Kbps up. while this is usable if all you want to do is browse the web, trying to do anything else was an extremely frustrating expereince. There is no way I could work from home consistently using that connection as I do now with the 50Mbps FTTP connection I am lucky enough to be using currently.

I also know of a businesses close to the city that struggles with ADSL connections every day (at least when I was working there) and would greatly welcome the affordable high speed connection the NBN would bring them.

I really think there are far more beneficiaries than you realise.
I'm not saying there aren't any beneficiaries - I'm not saying it isn't a good thing and i'm not suggesting current infrastrucutre isn't crap.

I hate oversell, just keep it realistic - I admit however I am not in the IT sector so people may know more than me, but I'm yet to hear anything at all that changes my view that this is simply a standard infrastrcuture investment (needed one).

interestingly enough, I'm hearing many businesses getting told they don't qualify for the NBN, which still confuses the heck out of me given one of the biggest selling points was this huge boost to business productivity and efficiency.

I wonder if the businesses you speak of will even be allowed on the network.

I'll say it again, I am not against the NBN, just so we are crystal clear (I was initially to be fair, it seemed like something that could have been done by private sector but seeing the benefit to family and friends in regional Australia I'm happy to concede that they needed it to be done by a Government body)

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Re: News & Discussion: National Broadband Network

#539 Post by rubberman » Fri Jan 08, 2016 1:01 pm

I think what they mean when they say they don't qualify for the NBN is that they don't get fibre to the premises, which some do qualify for/get.

But Malcolm said that anyone who wants the fibre can get it for an extra $5000. He wouldn't break a promise, would he? So just tell them that Malcolm said they can get it if they pay the extra. Or relocate their business to somewhere that has fttp, or tell them their needs are exaggerated.

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Re: News & Discussion: National Broadband Network

#540 Post by Wayno » Fri Jan 08, 2016 1:24 pm

Go back just 8 years and I bet very few in this forum, myself included, would have envisaged the Smart Phone renaissance. Did you know the iPhone was first released in July 2007! How many of us now feel lost if we accidentally go out leaving our phone at home?!? Arrrgghh. But it's not about phones - the world has gone mobile.

We don't know what we don't know. Innovation brings never ending surprises. The NBN is a exercise in nation building. Deliver a sub-par solution and we'll spend double or triple later to catch up.

Anyone who says ADSL2 is sufficient simply doesn't get it. Period.

Oh, and it's not just about residential internet speeds. The next massive wave of fast-internet-dependent innovation will be industry based. 'Big Data', as it's being called, will be big. Smart grids, intelligent vehicles, connected healthcare and patient monitoring, literally billions of machines hooked to sensors, and positive disruption in schooling/education - these are among the areas to benefit. More jobs will arise, but importantly more interesting jobs will arise.

ADSL2, pfft.

The cost to build a brilliant NBN - billions. It's value - priceless.
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