[PRO] Port Adelaide Dock Spur Line

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Llessur2002
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[PRO] Re: Port Adelaide Dock Spur Line

#31 Post by Llessur2002 » Mon Jun 26, 2017 9:04 am

PeFe wrote:
Llessur2002 wrote:But removing stations will drive people from the areas in which stations are closed back into their cars. Wouldn't it be better to keep all stations but configure the network and timetable to run more express services?
No there are too many stations spaced closely together.......who gets the express services and who doesn't?
Yes 90% of stations need an upgrade....but there needs to be some sort of master plan regarding the train lines.
For example half the stations north of Glanville could be removed on the Outer Harbor line, the remainder upgraded with the possibility of transit orientated development around them.
Commuters are always willing to walk a little further or catch a bus if there is a pay off in the end, like a very quick train service into the city. Nothing can beat heavy rail over long distances to move large numbers of people quickly and smoothly.
I agree in principle but I still think it's a bit of a gamble moving PT further away from people under any circumstances - unless there is another station *very* close by that will be retained. Of course, stations with very low patronage should be evaluated for feasibility and closed if of no real benefit but don't forget how reluctant people are to actually use their legs and walk anywhere (especially in 40 degrees in summer) - even if they will be able to access a faster service as a result. Plus, although small in overall numbers, the service could become a lot less accessible to people with disabilities if stops were spaced further apart.

Instead of true 'express services', why can't some services just miss stops with low patronage? E.g. only every other service would stop at Woodville Park? One train every 30 minutes instead of the current 15?

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[PRO] Re: Port Adelaide Dock Spur Line

#32 Post by claybro » Mon Jun 26, 2017 11:34 am

Llessur2002 wrote:Instead of true 'express services', why can't some services just miss stops with low patronage? E.g. only every other service would stop at Woodville Park? One train every 30 minutes instead of the current 15
Why have anything stop at Woodville Park? Of all the stations in Adelaide, it probably is one of the more ridiculously situated, being as it is so close to Woodville.
The Port dock station proposal really does throw up some interesting questions. Although this is a welcome proposal, I think it is time for the government to come clean on their plans for the OH corridor in general.

What are the plans for electrification?
If, as appears heavy rail is the preferred option, what are the plans (if any) for Semaphore and West Lakes? (heavy rail will not be ideal for centre of road tracks on either WLB or Semaphore Road.)
A northwest light rail option connecting Grange/ Semaphore/ West lakes to heavy rail at Woodville station then really becomes an expensive folly, and is best served by buses using express bus lanes.
Is there room in the corridor for light rail tracks to run alongside heavy rail, so that a Grange/Semaphore West lakes light rail might serve stations from Woodville to City? (I assume the original proposal for dual voltage light rail cars is dead)

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[PRO] Re: Port Adelaide Dock Spur Line

#33 Post by Llessur2002 » Mon Jun 26, 2017 12:10 pm

claybro wrote:
Llessur2002 wrote:Instead of true 'express services', why can't some services just miss stops with low patronage? E.g. only every other service would stop at Woodville Park? One train every 30 minutes instead of the current 15
Why have anything stop at Woodville Park? Of all the stations in Adelaide, it probably is one of the more ridiculously situated, being as it is so close to Woodville.
It was just an example as someone had mentioned it earlier in the thread. I’ve cycled past it but I’m not particularly aware of patronage etc, although I would have thought it would be higher than, for example, Kilkenny station as that’s in somewhat of an industrial setting, sandwiched between industrial units.

Looking at Google Maps, the distance between Woodville and Woodville Park is no shorter than the distance between other stations on the line such as Osborne and Midlunga, Glanville and Ethelton or Cheltenham and St Clair (about 750m) and closing it would mean current users would have to cross either Woodville Road or David Terrace in peak hour to walk to another station. In the height of summer and winter I can see people deciding to drive to a neighbouring station instead of walking – and if they’re already doing that then why not drive all the way to the CBD?

If this corridor is slated for higher rates of growth and density in the coming years I’d still be reluctant to close any stations – providing the patronage levels are not exceedingly low, but that’s just my opinion. One major thing that has bothered me since I moved to Adelaide is that if someone can’t see a PT stop from the end of their street then many just don’t consider it a viable option compared to jumping in their car.

I still think that if we retained heavy rail on the OH line instead of switching to light rail then we can get the best of both worlds by increasing express/limited stop services from the furthest stations but encouraging mid to close-range patronage by retaining all but the least used existing stations. Granted, I don’t know how viable this would be from a scheduling perspective, considering there are no passing loops etc.

Side note: Didn’t someone (mono maybe) post some figures a little while ago about how far people were willing to walk to PT before they’d more likely revert to their car?

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[PRO] Re: Port Adelaide Dock Spur Line

#34 Post by ChillyPhilly » Mon Jun 26, 2017 12:32 pm

Llessur2002 wrote:
claybro wrote:
Llessur2002 wrote:Instead of true 'express services', why can't some services just miss stops with low patronage? E.g. only every other service would stop at Woodville Park? One train every 30 minutes instead of the current 15
Why have anything stop at Woodville Park? Of all the stations in Adelaide, it probably is one of the more ridiculously situated, being as it is so close to Woodville.
It was just an example as someone had mentioned it earlier in the thread. I’ve cycled past it but I’m not particularly aware of patronage etc, although I would have thought it would be higher than, for example, Kilkenny station as that’s in somewhat of an industrial setting, sandwiched between industrial units.

Looking at Google Maps, the distance between Woodville and Woodville Park is no shorter than the distance between other stations on the line such as Osborne and Midlunga, Glanville and Ethelton or Cheltenham and St Clair (about 750m) and closing it would mean current users would have to cross either Woodville Road or David Terrace in peak hour to walk to another station. In the height of summer and winter I can see people deciding to drive to a neighbouring station instead of walking – and if they’re already doing that then why not drive all the way to the CBD?

If this corridor is slated for higher rates of growth and density in the coming years I’d still be reluctant to close any stations – providing the patronage levels are not exceedingly low, but that’s just my opinion. One major thing that has bothered me since I moved to Adelaide is that if someone can’t see a PT stop from the end of their street then many just don’t consider it a viable option compared to jumping in their car.

I still think that if we retained heavy rail on the OH line instead of switching to light rail then we can get the best of both worlds by increasing express/limited stop services from the furthest stations but encouraging mid to close-range patronage by retaining all but the least used existing stations. Granted, I don’t know how viable this would be from a scheduling perspective, considering there are no passing loops etc.

Side note: Didn’t someone (mono maybe) post some figures a little while ago about how far people were willing to walk to PT before they’d more likely revert to their car?
Someone had some more detailed figures, but the rule of thumb used by planners here is 500 metres. This can be stretched to two kilometres in certain areas provided the walk is nice and the time spent at the transit destination is worthwhile. Terrain in both instances is surprisingly in fact a generally irrelevant consideration.

In America, this rule of thumb is around 200 metres, yet Australia gets called a lazy country.
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[PRO] Re: Port Adelaide Dock Spur Line

#35 Post by Norman » Mon Jun 26, 2017 1:13 pm

claybro wrote:
Llessur2002 wrote:Instead of true 'express services', why can't some services just miss stops with low patronage? E.g. only every other service would stop at Woodville Park? One train every 30 minutes instead of the current 15
Why have anything stop at Woodville Park? Of all the stations in Adelaide, it probably is one of the more ridiculously situated, being as it is so close to Woodville.
The Port dock station proposal really does throw up some interesting questions. Although this is a welcome proposal, I think it is time for the government to come clean on their plans for the OH corridor in general.

What are the plans for electrification?
If, as appears heavy rail is the preferred option, what are the plans (if any) for Semaphore and West Lakes? (heavy rail will not be ideal for centre of road tracks on either WLB or Semaphore Road.)
A northwest light rail option connecting Grange/ Semaphore/ West lakes to heavy rail at Woodville station then really becomes an expensive folly, and is best served by buses using express bus lanes.
Is there room in the corridor for light rail tracks to run alongside heavy rail, so that a Grange/Semaphore West lakes light rail might serve stations from Woodville to City? (I assume the original proposal for dual voltage light rail cars is dead)
There are currently 4 options in play:
http://dpti.sa.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf ... _FINAL.pdf

Image

We don't know anything more than that until the government finalises the report or makes a decision what to do.
Last edited by Norman on Mon Jun 26, 2017 1:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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[PRO] Re: Port Adelaide Dock Spur Line

#36 Post by Llessur2002 » Mon Jun 26, 2017 1:22 pm

Did you mean to post one for PortLink? That one's for the airport route.

Is this the one? http://infrastructure.sa.gov.au/__data/ ... _FINAL.pdf

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[PRO] Re: Port Adelaide Dock Spur Line

#37 Post by Norman » Mon Jun 26, 2017 1:25 pm

Llessur2002 wrote:Did you mean to post one for PortLink? That one's for the airport route.

Is this the one? http://infrastructure.sa.gov.au/__data/ ... _FINAL.pdf
I posted the wrong one originally, but have fixed the post since then.

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[PRO] Re: Port Adelaide Dock Spur Line

#38 Post by Westside » Mon Jun 26, 2017 1:30 pm

Norman wrote:
claybro wrote: What are the plans for electrification?
If, as appears heavy rail is the preferred option, what are the plans (if any) for Semaphore and West Lakes? (heavy rail will not be ideal for centre of road tracks on either WLB or Semaphore Road.)
A northwest light rail option connecting Grange/ Semaphore/ West lakes to heavy rail at Woodville station then really becomes an expensive folly, and is best served by buses using express bus lanes.
Is there room in the corridor for light rail tracks to run alongside heavy rail, so that a Grange/Semaphore West lakes light rail might serve stations from Woodville to City? (I assume the original proposal for dual voltage light rail cars is dead)
There are currently 4 options in play:
Well, only one of those options has a Port link (Option 2 - electrify and leave as heavy rail) - so can we assume that has been chosen?? To reiterate what's already been mentioned, how about giving us the full picture, instead of drip-feeding us these minor updates!

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[PRO] Re: Port Adelaide Dock Spur Line

#39 Post by Llessur2002 » Mon Jun 26, 2017 1:41 pm

Cheers Norman! Sorry, was a bit quick off the mark there.

The outcome of the MCA, if anyone's interested, is here:

http://www.infrastructure.sa.gov.au/__d ... lowres.pdf

The outcome of the analysis favoured options 1 and 3, with 2 (retention of heavy rail) scoring by far the least. But the addition of the Port spur would suggest option 2 is what we’re heading for?

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[PRO] Re: Port Adelaide Dock Spur Line

#40 Post by Norman » Mon Jun 26, 2017 1:47 pm

Westside wrote:Well, only one of those options has a Port link (Option 2 - electrify and leave as heavy rail) - so can we assume that has been chosen?? To reiterate what's already been mentioned, how about giving us the full picture, instead of drip-feeding us these minor updates!
Unfortunately it's an election year, so everything is more politicised than normal :roll:

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[PRO] Re: Port Adelaide Dock Spur Line

#41 Post by Kasey771 » Mon Jun 26, 2017 2:54 pm

Norman wrote:
Westside wrote:Well, only one of those options has a Port link (Option 2 - electrify and leave as heavy rail) - so can we assume that has been chosen?? To reiterate what's already been mentioned, how about giving us the full picture, instead of drip-feeding us these minor updates!
Unfortunately it's an election year, so everything is more politicised than normal :roll:
Sadly that means we're far less likely to get a logical solution and thus a good outcome :(
Big infrastructure investments are usually under-valued and & over-criticized while in the planning stage. It's much easier to envision the here and now costs and inconveniences, and far more difficult to imagine fully the eventual benefits.

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[PRO] Re: Port Adelaide Dock Spur Line

#42 Post by claybro » Mon Jun 26, 2017 4:29 pm

Llessur2002 wrote:utcome of the analysis favoured options 1 and 3, with 2 (retention of heavy rail) scoring by far the least. But the addition of the Port spur would suggest option 2 is what we’re heading for?
It would appear option 2 is in play, (the least extensive coverage) but the extension to Port Dock does not necessarily mean the whole lot cannot be converted to light rail at time of electrification. Many on this forum see light rail as the poor cousin however for mine, light rail resolves far more issues for the Northwest than does retention of heavy rail, with the latter really only better in the sense that it will be a faster ride for those north of Glanville.

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[PRO] Re: Port Adelaide Dock Spur Line

#43 Post by Brucetiki » Mon Jun 26, 2017 9:08 pm

The Scooter Guy wrote:
PeFe wrote:If this proposal comes to fruition, then the current Port Adelaide station should be renamed Commercial Road (as it used to be called) and the new station should be called "Port Adelaide"
Just for clarity (and make it easier for tourists and commuters)
More like "Port Adelaide Central" if you ask me.

This means that the rolling stock right next to Jacketts (next to Barlow St) would have to be temporarily sorted (including the truck with 515's broad gauge bogies and loco 517)
Is there still a posibility that the Red Hen train or the 2000 class train or Bluebird Kestrel could run from here to the ARS & back?
I hope the railway museum don't get sidelined in the development. Always fun to ride the likes of the Redhens along their current track. Plenty of room to have a main line and a museum line in the area though so I'm sure something will be worked out that will benefit both commuters and historical train lovers.

The Redhens failed their last inspection for mainline use, and ended up stranded at Dry Creek for awhile (resulting in the Bluebirds being used on the museum line at the Planes, Trains, Boats festival last year). The cost to get them up for mainline running is too prohibitive I believe. I imagine the Bluebirds would be in a worse state, and the 2000's haven't been out of service long enough to play the 'trip down memory lane' card on them yet.

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[PRO] Re: Port Adelaide Dock Spur Line

#44 Post by PeFe » Tue Jun 27, 2017 2:59 am

claybro wrote: light rail resolves far more issues for the Northwest than does retention of heavy rail, with the latter really only better in the sense that it will be a faster ride for those north of Glanville.
Faster ride for anyone west of Bowden...........

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[PRO] Re: Port Adelaide Dock Spur Line

#45 Post by SBD » Tue Jun 27, 2017 8:24 am

In "the good old days" Port Adelaide, Gawler and Adelaide all had trams, but it was the heavy railway line that linked the three separate tram networks (Gawler really only had one line, so maybe "network" is generous).

Is the call for trams/light rail at Port Adelaide intended primarily for trips that have one end in the Adelaide CBD, or is it intended/expected to be primarily used for "local trips" in Port Adelaide area? In the latter case, the old model of trams feeding in to a train station might work, especially if it provides the concentration for trips to make the train services frequent too.

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