News & Discussion: Trams

Threads relating to transport, water, etc. within the CBD and Metropolitan area.
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adelaide transport
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Re: News & Discussion: Trams

#3256 Post by adelaide transport » Tue Jul 24, 2018 5:34 pm

The tram continued over the intersection travelling east,as the points would not change for the right hand turn into King William Street.
Once over,and the passengers evacuated, the tram continued" not in service " to the East Terrace terminus,then reversed and returned to Glengowrie Depot,without passengers.

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Re: News & Discussion: Trams

#3257 Post by rubberman » Tue Jul 24, 2018 6:43 pm

adelaide transport wrote:
Tue Jul 24, 2018 5:34 pm
The tram continued over the intersection travelling east,as the points would not change for the right hand turn into King William Street.
Once over,and the passengers evacuated, the tram continued" not in service " to the East Terrace terminus,then reversed and returned to Glengowrie Depot,without passengers.
They can't change the points manually!!?

The mind boggles.

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Re: News & Discussion: Trams

#3258 Post by rubberman » Tue Jul 24, 2018 6:52 pm

English Electric wrote:
Tue Jul 24, 2018 4:45 pm
Just to be clear - in light of recent posts about whether or not scissors crossovers need signals - the fault causing the most recent delay to opening the extensions was in the control of the North Terrace / King William St junction.

According to this ABC report a regular tram in public service was accidentally diverted onto the new section on Monday 16th, and passengers needed to be evacuated.

It's unclear from the report whether this was a northbound tram being sent onto the Festival Plaza line, or a Glenelg-bound tram continuing straight ahead along North Terrace. But either way, you must admit they need to have this junction remotely operated by the driver (or transponder on the tram, or whatever) and working with 100% reliability before they can start the new services.

And presumably it's more an issue with incorrect operation of the points rather than "just" signal lights.

You'd expect stuff like this is very mature and well-understood technology for a conventional tramway like Adelaide's, and hopefully not too big a deal to fix - once you get suitably skilled people looking into it, that is.

ABC report source: http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-07-23/g ... n/10025788
Of course. There are plenty of good reasons for signals: single line working where trams can run both ways, high speed points where the driver cannot see the setting of points in time, complex junctions, trams crossing over car lanes etc. However, every set of signals also is a possible point of technical failure (as we now know) and is costly to install and maintain.

The conclusion is to have signals in only where required. Thus, if trams are going slowly at termini and junctions such as Morphettville, what is the justification for the expense, and the inconvenience when they fail?

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Re: News & Discussion: Trams

#3259 Post by SBD » Wed Jul 25, 2018 12:14 am

rubberman wrote:
Tue Jul 24, 2018 6:52 pm
English Electric wrote:
Tue Jul 24, 2018 4:45 pm
Just to be clear - in light of recent posts about whether or not scissors crossovers need signals - the fault causing the most recent delay to opening the extensions was in the control of the North Terrace / King William St junction.

According to this ABC report a regular tram in public service was accidentally diverted onto the new section on Monday 16th, and passengers needed to be evacuated.

It's unclear from the report whether this was a northbound tram being sent onto the Festival Plaza line, or a Glenelg-bound tram continuing straight ahead along North Terrace. But either way, you must admit they need to have this junction remotely operated by the driver (or transponder on the tram, or whatever) and working with 100% reliability before they can start the new services.

And presumably it's more an issue with incorrect operation of the points rather than "just" signal lights.

You'd expect stuff like this is very mature and well-understood technology for a conventional tramway like Adelaide's, and hopefully not too big a deal to fix - once you get suitably skilled people looking into it, that is.

ABC report source: http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-07-23/g ... n/10025788
Of course. There are plenty of good reasons for signals: single line working where trams can run both ways, high speed points where the driver cannot see the setting of points in time, complex junctions, trams crossing over car lanes etc. However, every set of signals also is a possible point of technical failure (as we now know) and is costly to install and maintain.

The conclusion is to have signals in only where required. Thus, if trams are going slowly at termini and junctions such as Morphettville, what is the justification for the expense, and the inconvenience when they fail?
What is not stated in the article is what state any signals to tram and other drivers and pedestrians were at the time that the tram went straight on. "signal problem" could mean that the signal from the points to the control system said the points were set to turn the tram, but in fact they were straight. This could be a major safety issue if cars, trucks or pedestrians crossing North Terrace east of the turn had green lights to complete a conflicting movement. I believe heavy rail has physical mechanical actions that prevent signals from activating to permit movements that conflict with the positions of the points. I assume that traffic lights do not have such physical interlocks with tram points. Intermittent or transient failures are much harder to diagnose and correct than permanent failures.

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Re: News & Discussion: Trams

#3260 Post by ChillyPhilly » Wed Jul 25, 2018 7:29 am

Well, the date has been set. Very interesting.

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Re: News & Discussion: Trams

#3261 Post by Alyx » Wed Jul 25, 2018 8:12 am

ChillyPhilly wrote:
Wed Jul 25, 2018 7:29 am
Well, the date has been set. Very interesting.
I knew a Liberal Government would take us backward, but...

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Re: News & Discussion: Trams

#3262 Post by bits » Wed Jul 25, 2018 8:35 am

Alyx wrote:
ChillyPhilly wrote:
Wed Jul 25, 2018 7:29 am
Well, the date has been set. Very interesting.
I knew a Liberal Government would take us backward, but...
Right back to the beginning of time.
Very epochalyptic in fact.

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Re: News & Discussion: Trams

#3263 Post by EBG » Wed Jul 25, 2018 11:10 pm

In June I was on this vintage tram on the City Circle line in Melbourne. The points leading to the Docklands failed to change in response to the in cab signalling so after 2 tries the driver simply got out and changed the points manually . The delay was less than a minute and we continued on our way. At numerous intersections in the CBD there were 6 or more trams all in a group and all turned off in different directions one after another.

Adelaide seems to be going for over kill.
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Re: News & Discussion: Trams

#3264 Post by victorious80 » Thu Jul 26, 2018 8:50 am

Overkill to ensure the contractor's works are functional before accepting them? Sounds like basic contract management. As English Electric mentioned earlier, they need to get things right before accepting the works and opening to the public.
Imagine the backlash had the department accepted the works in a defective state then spent additional money to rectify them at a later date?

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Re: News & Discussion: Trams

#3265 Post by EBG » Thu Jul 26, 2018 9:18 am

Overkill that they could not change the points manually, overkill that the passengers had to get off and the tram had to go all the way to the old RAH then gotgo back to the depot and we have to wait a week for some one to come from Germany to fix the problem?

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Re: News & Discussion: Trams

#3266 Post by rubberman » Thu Jul 26, 2018 6:44 pm

victorious80 wrote:
Thu Jul 26, 2018 8:50 am
Overkill to ensure the contractor's works are functional before accepting them? Sounds like basic contract management. As English Electric mentioned earlier, they need to get things right before accepting the works and opening to the public.
Imagine the backlash had the department accepted the works in a defective state then spent additional money to rectify them at a later date?
Nope. Under standard conditions of contract, the Contract Superintendent can deem the works complete, except for minor repairs and omissions. The Superintendent can withhold sufficient payment from the Contractor until those minor omissions are rectified.

The usual question in defining what a minor repair and omission is usually rests on whether the facility can be operated as intended, or so close to that as makes little practical difference. In this case, would a driver needing to get out of the cab and change points every now and then be a big deal? I know it happens in Melbourne, and other cities, so unless it's happening all the time, there's no reason to delay for something that isn't uncommon elsewhere...as long as they hold back enough money till it's fixed.

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Re: News & Discussion: Trams

#3267 Post by timtam20292 » Tue Jul 31, 2018 1:41 pm

Please tell me this is a joke.....

Tom Koutsantonis: BREAKING: North Tce Tram extension could take months to complete not a week as Minister Knoll told the media last week after his “set in Stone” promise evaporated.
From Twitter.

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Re: News & Discussion: Trams

#3268 Post by Waewick » Tue Jul 31, 2018 2:18 pm

timtam20292 wrote:Please tell me this is a joke.....

Tom Koutsantonis: BREAKING: North Tce Tram extension could take months to complete not a week as Minister Knoll told the media last week after his “set in Stone” promise evaporated.
From Twitter.
Its from Tom so no doubt its an exaggeration.

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Re: News & Discussion: Trams

#3269 Post by claybro » Tue Jul 31, 2018 2:27 pm

Waewick wrote:
Tue Jul 31, 2018 2:18 pm
timtam20292 wrote:Please tell me this is a joke.....

Tom Koutsantonis: BREAKING: North Tce Tram extension could take months to complete not a week as Minister Knoll told the media last week after his “set in Stone” promise evaporated.
From Twitter.
Its from Tom so no doubt its an exaggeration.
Why would Tom Koutsantonis be commenting on how much longer it will take to open the extension? The technical problems are not now a political issue. The faults are being addressed by the suppliers, not the current government. In fact, most of the unexplained delays with the project occurred on the previous governments watch.

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Re: News & Discussion: Trams

#3270 Post by rubberman » Tue Jul 31, 2018 2:46 pm

claybro wrote:
Tue Jul 31, 2018 2:27 pm
Waewick wrote:
Tue Jul 31, 2018 2:18 pm
timtam20292 wrote:Please tell me this is a joke.....




From Twitter.
Its from Tom so no doubt its an exaggeration.
Why would Tom Koutsantonis be commenting on how much longer it will take to open the extension? The technical problems are not now a political issue. The faults are being addressed by the suppliers, not the current government. In fact, most of the unexplained delays with the project occurred on the previous governments watch.
I agree that it's not a political issue. It was actually proceeding quite well until a month before the election. At that point it turned to excrement (I mean, five months to build platforms - you can build a whole house in that time).

I suspect that DPTI lost the previous project manager, and has struggled to find another one. Good project managers are hard to find, and keep. Especially on public service pay. Finding a competent project manager is not easy, but then finding one who knows something about tram systems is another level of difficulty as well. Then, assuming DPTI coukd find that person with tram expertise somewhere in Australia, how would they be lured to work for just a few months to finish a job?

Either that, or the government has gotten someone in from Sydney light rail project to help. THAT would explain everything.

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