News & Discussion: Regional Transport

Threads relating to transport, water, etc. within the CBD and Metropolitan area.
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claybro
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Re: News & Discussion: Regional Transport

#511 Post by claybro » Tue Aug 28, 2018 10:15 am

1NEEDS2POST wrote:
Tue Aug 28, 2018 1:19 am
Changing at Ararat is not the best solution, but currently it's the easiest way to speed up the journey. I wouldn't be surprised if the Ararat line gets converted to standard gauge in the near future. The Victorian government's Murray Basin Rail Project is currently converting all of the railway lines in Western Victoria to standard gauge, except the Ararat line.

VLocities were designed to be convertible to standard gauge. Running VLocities to Adelaide is not out of the question.
Agree having a couple of V Locity sets for standard gauge is the quickest, cheapest way to get something happening on this route. Smaller faster, lighter trains could run each way daily again, much more cost effective, and compare favourably with a bus. The days of the long, cumbersome, slow trains, dragged by locos and staffed by many both on board and at either end are out of the early last century. If changing in Ararat to the broad gauge is what is required to get this happening , then so be it. Getting the connection right would be critical though, and adding an extra hour to the journey to take it on the same train through Geelong, might not be too bad, given the time lost changing trains, even if they time it to within 10 minutes or so. It will be difficult to co-ordinate the connection, and will require a train virtually on hold in Ararat awaiting the Adelaide train as there are many un planned hold ups on the long Adelaide Ararat stretch as the passenger trains have to share slots with the freight trains.

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Re: News & Discussion: Regional Transport

#512 Post by mattwinter » Tue Aug 28, 2018 10:47 pm

There are two things that give me hope for the future of the overland at the moment...

1. For the first time, Bombardier are designing and building Standard-gauge Velocity trains. Residents on the Victorian North East line (Albury etc.) have been pushing for this for a while. Sorry this article’s behind a paywall, but it seems to hint that designing the new bogies will take some work... getting this done for the Overland alone might never have been possible but now it’s happening. (https://www.bordermail.com.au/story/556 ... rail-line/)

2. Local councils in Western Victoria are pushing for the track between Ararat and Ballarat to be converted to Standard Gauge for the purposes of getting passenger rail to Horsham and Hamilton. The idea would be to make Ballarat a hub, and run Standard Gauge trains from the West into Ballarat where people will change trains. A feasibility study has already been done. (https://www.thecourier.com.au/story/548 ... nvestment/)

So, putting those together. There’ll be trains being built that can be used. It’s likely that standard gauge will run to Ballarat at some point where changing trains will become standard practice. Surely it wouldn’t be a stretch to run a daily Velocity train all the way from Adelaide, not only from Horsham. Western Victoria would get on board because it would help make more frequent services viable.

The travel time in this scenario would be cut dramatically from the current overland. Ballarat would be back on the route again which would add to the appeal (you can’t fly to Ballarat - by the time you fly to Melbourne, catch the Skybus to Southern Cross and catch a Vline to Ballarat you might as well have just caught a train the whole way?)

Long term hopefully something like this is on the cards.

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Re: News & Discussion: Regional Transport

#513 Post by SBD » Tue Aug 28, 2018 11:28 pm

The passing loops have been extended and are spaced to support 1600-1800m freight trains travelling in opposite directions. The current timetabling is done with slots that support the speeds of those trains.

Is the speed of a "slot" a constraining factor for running a more modern and faster (and probably much shorter) passenger train on the route, or are there still shorter passing loops that are not used by freight but could facilitate a passenger train fitting in between the bigger slower trains?\

I don't know how close to capacity the current freight timetable is. There would be very few places on the current track that could support a passenger train overtaking a freight train at the same time as passing another freight train going the other way on a third track.

Introducing a new and faster service with intermediate stops every one to two hundred kilometres might require significant track work at the selected stations and possibly other places to provide suitable access to platforms if the freight tracks have been deliberately realigned further from platforms for safety or faster through operation. Stopping regularly might mean they don't need to find the overtaking tracks though - timetable a stop for every time it almost catches the train in front.

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Re: News & Discussion: Regional Transport

#514 Post by mattwinter » Wed Aug 29, 2018 7:29 am

I’d say that would certainly be a question. Speed is important - got to be able to get to Melbourne faster than you can drive there.

I’d say you would just want stops at Adelaide, Aldgate (?), Murray Bridge, Keith, Bordertown, Nhill, Horsham, Ararat, Ballarat...?

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Re: News & Discussion: Regional Transport

#515 Post by 1NEEDS2POST » Wed Aug 29, 2018 10:36 pm

mattwinter wrote:
Tue Aug 28, 2018 10:47 pm
2. Local councils in Western Victoria are pushing for the track between Ararat and Ballarat to be converted to Standard Gauge for the purposes of getting passenger rail to Horsham and Hamilton. The idea would be to make Ballarat a hub, and run Standard Gauge trains from the West into Ballarat where people will change trains. A feasibility study has already been done. (https://www.thecourier.com.au/story/548 ... nvestment/)
That will be an interesting development. Hopefully at the same time they increase the speed, since the VLocities can't reach 160 km/h past Ballarat.
SBD wrote:
Tue Aug 28, 2018 11:28 pm
The passing loops have been extended and are spaced to support 1600-1800m freight trains travelling in opposite directions. The current timetabling is done with slots that support the speeds of those trains.

Is the speed of a "slot" a constraining factor for running a more modern and faster (and probably much shorter) passenger train on the route, or are there still shorter passing loops that are not used by freight but could facilitate a passenger train fitting in between the bigger slower trains?\

I don't know how close to capacity the current freight timetable is. There would be very few places on the current track that could support a passenger train overtaking a freight train at the same time as passing another freight train going the other way on a third track.

Introducing a new and faster service with intermediate stops every one to two hundred kilometres might require significant track work at the selected stations and possibly other places to provide suitable access to platforms if the freight tracks have been deliberately realigned further from platforms for safety or faster through operation. Stopping regularly might mean they don't need to find the overtaking tracks though - timetable a stop for every time it almost catches the train in front.
It doesn't seem that busy. The busiest days are Tuesday and Thursday and on those days, only ten trains travel in either direction between Keswick and Dimboola Loop.
https://www.artc.com.au/customers/opera ... 018-05-20/

If the northern rail bypass gets built, that will give the route even more capacity. It opens up the possibility of double stacking on the route, so there will be larger, but fewer trains. Also, passenger trains won't have to contend with goods trains through the Hills.

Superelevation through the Hills can be bumped up given no goods trains will be using it, increasing speed. Ultimately, I think to increase speed through the Hills we need tilt trains. Even the route in Victoria is winding enough that tilt trains will make a difference.

Back on the Ararat line gauge conversion topic, Adelaide to Melbourne via the current alignment is 776.51 km according to http://www.sa-trackandsignal.net/. Adelaide to Ararat is 511.71 km, then Ararat to Melbourne via Ballarat is 210.82 km. So with the Ararat line gauge conversion, it will bring the distance down to 722.53 km.

On railway lines with level crossings, speed is limited to 160 km/h. I can't see any reason we couldn't run tilt trains at this speed on most of the track. At this speed, Adelaide to Melbourne is only 4 hours 31 minutes. Let's add in speed restrictions and a handful of stops, I think 5 hours 30 minutes is achievable.

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Re: News & Discussion: Regional Transport

#516 Post by rubberman » Thu Aug 30, 2018 10:49 am


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Re: News & Discussion: Regional Transport

#517 Post by rev » Thu Aug 30, 2018 11:18 am


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Re: News & Discussion: Regional Transport

#518 Post by mattwinter » Thu Aug 30, 2018 11:59 am

1NEEDS2POST wrote:
Wed Aug 29, 2018 10:36 pm
On railway lines with level crossings, speed is limited to 160 km/h. I can't see any reason we couldn't run tilt trains at this speed on most of the track. At this speed, Adelaide to Melbourne is only 4 hours 31 minutes. Let's add in speed restrictions and a handful of stops, I think 5 hours 30 minutes is achievable.
Good post - that would be gold I reckon. Would become a much more popular option and at least popular enough to run a train a day. A great way to make regional towns in SA/VIC more accessible and not a bad option for people heading to Melbourne.

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Re: News & Discussion: Regional Transport

#519 Post by SBD » Thu Aug 30, 2018 1:34 pm

rubberman wrote:
Thu Aug 30, 2018 10:49 am
Just turned up on the ABC.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-08-30/p ... d/10181606
The overpass seems to be a good solution to the specific problem of getting people off of Yorke Peninsula towards Adelaide on public holiday Mondays. Dual lanes through Port Wakefield also assist that, but still with the reduced speed limit.

The video fly-through has "user experience" for a couple of directions, but does not show the user experience for turning right from Augusta Highway to Copper Coast Highway. The illustration seems to suggest that this will not change much, except for the pile of dirt (overpass down ramp) potentially restricting visibility round the curve.

I'm not sure how common that movement is - there are roads through Lochiel-Ninnes-Paskeville and Snowtown-Bute-Kadina that would take some of the lighter traffic, but neither of those permits 32-36.5m road trains/B-triples which are permitted to turn at this junction according to RAVNet. 26m B-doubles are permitted through Bute.

I am concerned that the sight line could be impaired enough that a heavy road train turning right may not have enough vision to find the right time to turn, and northbound traffic could be impaired of seeing it if not expecting it. I have not been through the intersection recently thinking about that, so don't know how real this concern is now or would be in future when the overpass is built.

UPDATE: I found the traffic volume dataset on data.sa.gov.au. There are 110 vehicles per day turn right, 21 of those are "commercial vehicles". I haven't found the class descriptions, but it breaks down to 7x class 3-5, 5 class 6-9, 4x class 10 and 5x class 11 commercial vehicles. Not a lot in the scheme of things, but enough to need to consider them.

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Re: News & Discussion: Regional Transport

#520 Post by Waewick » Thu Aug 30, 2018 4:29 pm

I don't like it.

I understand that the businesses don't want a bypass, but Highways are for getting people to a destination with minimal pain. having to slow down for the sake of it is just annoying.

the overpass, i don't know. but why wouldn't you just have done it with 2 lanes?
Last edited by Waewick on Thu Aug 30, 2018 4:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: News & Discussion: Regional Transport

#521 Post by rhino » Thu Aug 30, 2018 5:22 pm

Waewick wrote:
Thu Aug 30, 2018 4:29 pm
the overpass, i don't know. but why wouldn't you just have done it with 2 lanes?
Because this is the team that builds one-way freeways, remember :banana:
cheers,
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Re: News & Discussion: Regional Transport

#522 Post by Goodsy » Thu Aug 30, 2018 5:57 pm

rhino wrote:
Thu Aug 30, 2018 5:22 pm
Waewick wrote:
Thu Aug 30, 2018 4:29 pm
the overpass, i don't know. but why wouldn't you just have done it with 2 lanes?
Because this is the team that builds one-way freeways, remember :banana:
Or, There really is no justification for a full highway interchange that would only see traffic on a handful of days every year

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Re: News & Discussion: Regional Transport

#523 Post by 1NEEDS2POST » Thu Aug 30, 2018 6:55 pm

SBD wrote:
Thu Aug 30, 2018 1:34 pm
The video fly-through has "user experience" for a couple of directions, but does not show the user experience for turning right from Augusta Highway to Copper Coast Highway. The illustration seems to suggest that this will not change much, except for the pile of dirt (overpass down ramp) potentially restricting visibility round the curve.
I presume you're talking about this section here.

Image

It hasn't been given much attention, but it is lightly used. From this perspective, the dirt isn't blocking the view, but it's still early days with a conceptual drawing.
Waewick wrote:
Thu Aug 30, 2018 4:29 pm
I understand that the businesses don't want a bypass, but Highways are for getting people to a destination with minimal pain. having to slow down for the sake of it is just annoying.
Agreed, it sounds like vote buying for the locals. This proposal will slow the highway down further with a roundabout at Balaklava Rd.

A bypass would save a reasonable distance too. The thing is, the overpass and bypass probably can't be done in isolation. If they put in a bypass, may as well move the overpass further east.
1NEEDS2POST wrote:
Wed Aug 29, 2018 10:36 pm
Back on the Ararat line gauge conversion topic, Adelaide to Melbourne via the current alignment is 776.51 km according to http://www.sa-trackandsignal.net/. Adelaide to Ararat is 511.71 km, then Ararat to Melbourne via Ballarat is 210.82 km. So with the Ararat line gauge conversion, it will bring the distance down to 722.53 km.
GSR says the route is 828 km. I don't know what to believe now.

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Re: News & Discussion: Regional Transport

#524 Post by SBD » Thu Aug 30, 2018 8:47 pm

Yes, that is the bit I am talking about. It just seems strange to do a "safety upgrade" and not change the bit where road trains turn right across traffic including other road trains, even if it is only an average of five times a day at present.

I realised after I posted that sight lines are probably OK as the bridge has to proved sufficient clearance for oversize loads such as bits of wind turbine towers.

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Re: News & Discussion: Regional Transport

#525 Post by rhino » Fri Aug 31, 2018 8:39 am

Goodsy wrote:
Thu Aug 30, 2018 5:57 pm
rhino wrote:
Thu Aug 30, 2018 5:22 pm
Waewick wrote:
Thu Aug 30, 2018 4:29 pm
the overpass, i don't know. but why wouldn't you just have done it with 2 lanes?
Because this is the team that builds one-way freeways, remember :banana:
Or, There really is no justification for a full highway interchange that would only see traffic on a handful of days every year
Quite true, but I couldn't resist it :)
cheers,
Rhino

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