News & Discussion: Public Transport Service & Policy

Threads relating to transport, water, etc. within the CBD and Metropolitan area.
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Waewick
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Re: News & Discussion: Public Transport Service & Policy

#1756 Post by Waewick » Wed May 15, 2019 2:11 pm

Well that was a quick u turn, i thought they said no to privatisation in their election pitches?

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Re: News & Discussion: Public Transport Service & Policy

#1757 Post by ChillyPhilly » Wed May 15, 2019 2:17 pm

Adelaide's network is too small for privatisation to be successful in any form.
Last edited by ChillyPhilly on Wed May 15, 2019 7:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: News & Discussion: Public Transport Service & Policy

#1758 Post by Nort » Wed May 15, 2019 4:27 pm

Waewick wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 2:11 pm
Well that was a quick u turn, i thought they said no to privatisation in their election pitches?
Who would be silly enough to believe that the Libs wouldn't privatize anything they can?

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Re: News & Discussion: Public Transport Service & Policy

#1759 Post by rubberman » Wed May 15, 2019 9:09 pm

Waewick wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 2:11 pm
Well that was a quick u turn, i thought they said no to privatisation in their election pitches?
Just like they said they wouldn't privatise ETSA.

I'm not philosophically driven either way, but there needs to be a business or improved customer service case for doing this.

I have never seen a good before and after economic analysis of privatisation. Now that there's been a lot of privatisation, and over a long time, maybe the costs and benefits should be examined before proceeding.

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Re: News & Discussion: Public Transport Service & Policy

#1760 Post by Eurostar » Wed May 15, 2019 9:44 pm

Public Transport in Adelaide and South Australia needs investment not cuts and privatisation

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Re: News & Discussion: Public Transport Service & Policy

#1761 Post by adelaide transport » Wed May 15, 2019 11:35 pm

Our Bus Network needs a complete overhaul.

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Re: News & Discussion: Public Transport Service & Policy

#1762 Post by muzzamo » Thu May 16, 2019 8:55 am

I'm in favor of privatising the train network in particular if it is done properly.

Remember - privatisation doesn't necessarily mean selling off the assets and allowing the owner to do what they like with prices.

Under the model used for the busses, I believe the government owns the busses and infrastructure, collects the ticketing revenue, sets the routes, runs the whole thing at an overall loss and puts out the operation of the service out to tender.

This means that you have a relatively efficient, hard working private sector taking care of the day to day operations rather than unaccountable, difficult-to-fire public servants operating under an inefficient, inflexible bureaucracy in charge. There are likely twice as many people employed as there are actually required to do the job. Anyone who has worked in government for a reasonable period of time will know what I mean, or you just need to stand at Adelaide railway station for a bit.

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Re: News & Discussion: Public Transport Service & Policy

#1763 Post by Eurostar » Thu May 16, 2019 10:51 am

adelaide transport wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 11:35 pm
Our Bus Network needs a complete overhaul.
In the 80s Adelaide we had top quality buses and trains, good mix of city bus routes and cross suburban bus routes. Without the OBahn traffic congestion in the north eastern suburbs area would be alot worse. In my opinion though there should of been a trainline to Modbury with a corridor reserved for extension to Golden Grove, and maybe downhill to Elizabeth (Mini CBD), we could of had high density hubs above and surrounding Klemzig, Paradise and Modbury, maybe Golden Grove.

In the 90s Transit Link Services were introduced and new good quality MAN buses entered service, new diesel trains and then of course the bus network was privatised.

In the 00s most bus routes are now city based, less crosstown routes. New cheapest buses entered service, I can't blame the State Labor choosing the cheapest buses because maintenence by operators is not the best. We finally got new trams. Tramline got so popular that Patrick Conlon had to buy nearly new never used trams from Europe.

In the 10s we finally got two lines electrified, all metro rail network upgraded, some stations upgraded, new electric trains, the diesel 3000 trains got upgraded, mind you now i think they look like lego trains. The busway got extended. By late 10s decade we have seen cuts to bus services.

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Re: News & Discussion: Public Transport Service & Policy

#1764 Post by Llessur2002 » Tue May 28, 2019 11:35 am

Another annoying move from Stephan Knoll...
Public transport users to be slugged $150 extra a year as two-section fares scrapped

Two-section fares are to be scrapped as part of the overhaul of Adelaide's public transport network, a move that will cost regular users an extra $150 a year.

Transport Minister Stephan Knoll told a forum run by the Conservation Council on Monday night that there would be "uncomfortable change" over the next 12 to 18 months for public transport users.

He told ABC Radio Adelaide that this included axing the two-section fare option, which enabled users travelling short distances a fare reduction of up to $2 for a single trip.

For example, a two-section metroticket costs $3.50 as opposed to $5.50 for a full fare, while the tap-on metrocard difference is $2 versus $3.70.

Mr Knoll suggested regular users switch to the 28-day pass, which would amount to "somewhere south of 50 cents a day difference".

He argued the current ticketing system was hard to enforce because, unlike those interstate, there was no tap-off facility to track a journey and charge accordingly, except for people travelling to Adelaide Railway Station.

"Up to one in four people who are using a two-section ticket are doing so fraudulently," Mr Knoll said.

"It is a massive rort that almost 25 per cent of people are using by buying those tickets.

"We think that's fundamentally unfair and it's why we made the decision to get rid of it."

Mr Knoll added that recent department figures revealed public transport use had declined by 1.3 million trips over the past three years.

Opposition treasury spokesman Stephen Mullighan said there was no justification to remove the two-section fare and called it a "blatant cash grab".

"There is no evidence, that the Minister is able to produce, that one quarter of two-section ticket holders are rorting the system," he said.

"Certainly, fare evasion continues to be a problem on public transport, but it's not two-section fare holders who are the problem.

"It's the people who don't buy a ticket at all and jump on a train station midway down the line then jump off a few stations later."

The former transport minister said patronage numbers increased by two million people under the Labor government between 2008 and 2017.

"If it's gone backwards in the past 12 months, we look forward to getting the details about what's happened since Stephan was Minister," Mr Mullighan said.

He added that any decline in usage was likely caused by interruptions to services during recent major works, including the electrification and extension of the Seaford line, the O-Bahn upgrade, and those at the Goodwood and Torrens junctions.

"There have been interruptions that still affect patronage, but overall patronage has gone up," Mr Mullighan said.

Mr Knoll has made a series of controversial statements and changes to public transport since the Liberals came into power last year, including announcing the cessation of Adelaide metropolitan bus service contracts by 2020, which the union has said would amount to 1,170 bus route reductions.

The Minister suggested replacing underutilised bus routes with Uber-style bus services, and has also refused to rule out privatising the city's tram and train network.

Mr Knoll asked his critics to judge the Government in 12 to 18 months' time, once the results of change were visible.
From: https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-05-28/ ... r/11155902

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Re: News & Discussion: Public Transport Service & Policy

#1765 Post by Nathan » Tue May 28, 2019 11:49 am

Welp, that'll be me out from using the train from now on. No way will I be paying for a full fare trip for one stop into the city.

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Re: News & Discussion: Public Transport Service & Policy

#1766 Post by muzzamo » Tue May 28, 2019 11:59 am

"There is no evidence, that the Minister is able to produce, that one quarter of two-section ticket holders are rorting the system," he said.
This evidence would be easy enough to produce (on aggregate).

Using the tap-on data, you could produce a report that shows people who are regularly tapping on at one location in the morning, then tapping on again in the evening at another location that is further than typical two-section distances, i.e. catching the train in from seaford on a two section ticket then catching the train again from Adelaide station in the evenings.

I'm surprised it is as low as 1 in 4 - i reckon it would be even higher than this, particularly people when you count people who are only defrauding it "a little" e.g. slightly further than what a two section ticket would allow.

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Re: News & Discussion: Public Transport Service & Policy

#1767 Post by ChillyPhilly » Tue May 28, 2019 12:04 pm

Knoll is absolutely clueless.
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Re: News & Discussion: Public Transport Service & Policy

#1768 Post by Ho Really » Tue May 28, 2019 12:08 pm

Llessur2002 wrote:
Tue May 28, 2019 11:35 am
Another annoying move from Stephan Knoll...
It may be annoying to some but as explained there are good reasons. I know a few people who've used this "loophole" to rort the system. It has to be changed. Perhaps changing it to a check-in check-out system.

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Re: News & Discussion: Public Transport Service & Policy

#1769 Post by Llessur2002 » Tue May 28, 2019 12:08 pm

Nathan wrote:
Tue May 28, 2019 11:49 am
Welp, that'll be me out from using the train from now on. No way will I be paying for a full fare trip for one stop into the city.
I'm two stops out and use the 2 section tickets fairly. I'm all in favour of reducing fare evasion but it seems a bit of a heavy-handed approach to remove the cut price tickets for those who genuinely only travel one or two stops.

It will be interesting to see what effect this has on patronage around stations 1 or 2 stops out from the CBD. I know that Croydon, for example, sees a fair number of people driving to the station in order to take advantage of a cut price ticket into the city. Presumably most of these would either just drive to their closest station or, as we would expect to see when ticket prices go up, simply decide to sod it and drive into the CBD instead.

Which begs another question - will the (currently unspecified number of) people who rort the two section system convert to full fares, or just stop taking the train altogether? Likewise with those who use the system fairly but decide that $4 to travel one stop is too much.

For a government that's (apparently) trying to increase patronage this might backfire.

Fare evasion does need to be tackled - I see it every single day I take the train. For example I would genuinely say the majority of people getting on an outbound train at Bowden Station just after 5pm don't bother to validate a ticket at all.
Last edited by Llessur2002 on Tue May 28, 2019 2:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: News & Discussion: Public Transport Service & Policy

#1770 Post by d3v310per » Tue May 28, 2019 1:37 pm

In The Advertiser today... FYI

Matthew Pantelis: The SA Government should bite the bullet and make public transport free

We already subsidise the cost of public transport. So why doesn’t the government bite the bullet and make it free for all, asks Matthew Pantelis.

If you use public transport, you’ll know exactly what impact the service has to your weekly wage.

For the money you pay, soon to be $5.20 for a single trip ticket, you expect the bus, train or tram to arrive on time, hopefully with an available seat and the trip to be smooth, safe and uneventful.

But if you think there’s money left over from your scanned or purchased ticket to fund new carriages, more services or cleaner seat fabric, you’re kidding yourself.

Like most government provided passenger transport around the world, Adelaide Metro is heavily subsidised by the taxpayer, ours to some 80 per cent.

Your contribution, and those of the people sitting or standing around you right now as you commute, assuming they’ve bothered to pay for their ride, goes to fund the remaining 20 per cent.

I didn’t think much about that until some six years ago when the Liberals in opposition called for free public transport during Mad March and the then Clipsal500, as compensation for road closures.

Then Transport Services Minister Chloe Fox helpfully responded with a cost figure of $8m lost in bus travel over the period if the plan was implemented.

Now, we’d all love the bank balance to be healthier by a lazy $8m but in the scheme of government spending that’s not even petty cash, it’s more like the loose change behind the cushions on the government sofa.

Since then, I’ve wondered why we bother charging commuters at all.

Last week, in the wake of falling patronage figures and their call to the new SA Public Transport Authority to fix it, the state government announced the annual increases to state fees and charges, a two per cent ticket price hike and the scrapping of the two section ticket, a relic from the days of the Municipal Tramways Trust.

Naturally, the announcement prompted the obligatory pleasantries on Twitter between Transport Minister Stephan Knoll and his opposite, Shadow Transport Minister Tom Koutsantonis.

Mr Knoll tweeted “providing free travel for concession groups is important (and) shouldn’t change but if the only way to increase use is to give it away, then it shows we need to focus more on the customer.”

No argument there but talk of free travel for some raises the obvious point which I made to him on Twitter; if taxpayers fund the service to 80 per cent, why shouldn’t they fund it to 100 percent? Why not make it free? We want to fix patronage, right?

The Opposition isn’t having any of that, Mr. Koutsantonis joining in with a view of the problem not being about patronage but ideology and budget management.

He says the Liberals “are preparing the public and media for privatisation and cuts, both unjustified on patronage numbers and the fact public transport is an essential service.”

The Transport Minister responded to me saying free public transport for all “would blow a $320m hole in the budget (and) our issues are more about service than cost, our (public transport) is cheap compared with other jurisdictions”.

Let’s break that down: $320m a year comes down to $26m a month or less than $1m per day. Of course it’s a cost but if that’s the 20 per cent, then we’re already paying the other 80 per cent, or if you prefer it in dollar terms, $1.3bn per year.

The extra bit literally is what’s behind the couch, in government spending terms.

Some questions for the government:

Are we serious about growing our population base by attracting people to South Australia? What better selling point than living in the capital city where every bus, tram and train is free?

Do we really want to bust road congestion?

RAA studies, seemingly since the organisation was formed, have reported longer and longer waits for commuters in their cars on crammed inner arterial roads.

Imagine if just 10, or 20 or even 30 percent of motorists decided to leave the vehicle at home and catch a free bus, tram or train in to the city.

And finally, do we really want to increase patronage or just talk about it, while doing the time-honoured-all-government-thing of just jacking up the price of tickets as an easy budget fix?

The only downside I can see to free transport is there won’t be enough buses, trams or trains to cope with demand. Patronage would go through the roof, Indian train style.

This year may not be the time with a cut in GST revenue to SA but the Marshall government needs to prove it is bold enough to try something positive while it is in the driver’s seat, or sit back as a passenger and enjoy the ride while it lasts.

Matthew Pantelis is an Adelaide journalist and the news director of radio Fiveaa.

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