News & Discussion: Adelaide Metro Trains

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SBD
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Re: News & Discussion: Adelaide Metro Trains

#4141 Post by SBD » Sun Oct 13, 2019 8:34 am

1NEEDS2POST wrote:
Sat Oct 12, 2019 4:33 pm
Joelmark wrote:
Sat Oct 12, 2019 8:56 am
Labor will announce this weekend that they will take back any tram or train services that are outsourced by the Liberals if they are elected at the 2022 state election. I believe the option of taking back the bus contracts will be explored too. Good news for those of us who have concluded that there's not a single good reason to transfer these services to the private sector. It will hopefully make the private bidders think twice before competing for the contracts in the first place. This keeps the pressure up on the State Libs and their train-wreck of a public transport policy.
If the services are re-nationalised, does the government have to pay a penalty to cancel the contract? Usually the Liberals include these clauses so that Labor can't re-nationalise.
The immediate effect will be that the Labor statements will increase "sovereign risk", so the bidders will include a premium in case their contracts are cut short. The successful bidders will likely also delay significant investment until they have more confidence that this threat will not be exercised. The losers will be the people and commuters. The contract will be more expensive and improvements delayed, just be Labor making this statement. In a couple years time, they will then be able to say "I told you so" when the intended results don't eventuate.

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Re: News & Discussion: Adelaide Metro Trains

#4142 Post by rubberman » Sun Oct 13, 2019 2:49 pm

SBD wrote:
Sun Oct 13, 2019 8:34 am
1NEEDS2POST wrote:
Sat Oct 12, 2019 4:33 pm
Joelmark wrote:
Sat Oct 12, 2019 8:56 am
Labor will announce this weekend that they will take back any tram or train services that are outsourced by the Liberals if they are elected at the 2022 state election. I believe the option of taking back the bus contracts will be explored too. Good news for those of us who have concluded that there's not a single good reason to transfer these services to the private sector. It will hopefully make the private bidders think twice before competing for the contracts in the first place. This keeps the pressure up on the State Libs and their train-wreck of a public transport policy.
If the services are re-nationalised, does the government have to pay a penalty to cancel the contract? Usually the Liberals include these clauses so that Labor can't re-nationalise.
The immediate effect will be that the Labor statements will increase "sovereign risk", so the bidders will include a premium in case their contracts are cut short. The successful bidders will likely also delay significant investment until they have more confidence that this threat will not be exercised. The losers will be the people and commuters. The contract will be more expensive and improvements delayed, just be Labor making this statement. In a couple years time, they will then be able to say "I told you so" when the intended results don't eventuate.
Which is why major and controversial policies should be announced before elections.

Labor has privatised government services, certainly. However, since the Liberals are pro privatisation, it's unlikely they'd be reversed. However, if it's something that a subsequent government might reverse, it's on the Liberals for not stating it before the election. That's especially so, if Labor goes to the next election for people to vote on.

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Re: News & Discussion: Adelaide Metro Trains

#4143 Post by Waewick » Sun Oct 13, 2019 10:40 pm

I think it's more distressing that people actually still lap this populist policy crap up.

Labor SA are a privatisation machine, this faux concern is completely transparent and it is utterly bizzare that anyone who can click their own fingers is actually falling for it.

They won't cancel any contracts, they say they will, now, but they don't actually want to do it.

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Re: News & Discussion: Adelaide Metro Trains

#4144 Post by Joelmark » Mon Oct 14, 2019 9:49 pm

Waewick wrote:
Sun Oct 13, 2019 10:40 pm
I think it's more distressing that people actually still lap this populist policy crap up.

Labor SA are a privatisation machine, this faux concern is completely transparent and it is utterly bizzare that anyone who can click their own fingers is actually falling for it.

They won't cancel any contracts, they say they will, now, but they don't actually want to do it.
Actually, they will.

If you are arguing from an anti-privatisation agenda, neither side has been perfect, I'll give you that. But the State Liberals have been far more enthusiastic about privatisation than Labor have or will ever be.

The Rann Labor Government took Modbury Hopsital back from private operation, re-opened Sturt Street primary school that had been closed under Lucas (they campaigned big on that too), and halted the further corporatisation of SA Water with shorter contracts and more stringent rules (remember the 1990s and United Water with the Brown Liberal Government, anyone?). The tramline and rail extensions begun 10 years ago were all done with the intention of being serviced by totally government owned operators - DPTI and Adelaide Metro.

True, ForestrySA and the LTO were leased, but those billions were/ will be directly poured into the stuff we're enjoying today - Adelaide Oval, rail electrification, North South Corridor, regional road and hospital upgrades...

But back to rail and tram outsourcing. I think it was Muzzamo who pointed out on here back in early July - the savings from this are so little - in the single millions over decades, perhaps - and can only be attained by further cutting wages and cleaning and maintenance standards. It's nothing compared to the record debt this State Liberal Government will have racked up -$21.3 billion by 2022-3. There can be no real reasoning for this other than ideological. Presumably, it's just so their corporate mates can make a quick buck or two.

You can see the emptiness in the faces of Marshall and Knoll already. Premier Steven Marshall was clearly rattled when confronted by Labor's new stance - there's nothing else there for them to say but cliched one-liners; no reasoning or justification for their decision. They were after all pretty hopeless in opposition for 16 years (anyone or here really disagree?), winning government in 2018 only because it was presented to them on a platter with the redistribution. Should anyone be surprised that they are any different in government?

Labor's stance is very different, and a change from what we were expecting from when a government service is privatised/outsourced/franchised the first time. It will be interesting to see how the Government and potential bidders further react.

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Re: News & Discussion: Adelaide Metro Trains

#4145 Post by Waewick » Wed Oct 16, 2019 11:08 am

Joelmark wrote:
Waewick wrote:
Sun Oct 13, 2019 10:40 pm
I think it's more distressing that people actually still lap this populist policy crap up.

Labor SA are a privatisation machine, this faux concern is completely transparent and it is utterly bizzare that anyone who can click their own fingers is actually falling for it.

They won't cancel any contracts, they say they will, now, but they don't actually want to do it.
Actually, they will.

If you are arguing from an anti-privatisation agenda, neither side has been perfect, I'll give you that. But the State Liberals have been far more enthusiastic about privatisation than Labor have or will ever be.

The Rann Labor Government took Modbury Hopsital back from private operation, re-opened Sturt Street primary school that had been closed under Lucas (they campaigned big on that too), and halted the further corporatisation of SA Water with shorter contracts and more stringent rules (remember the 1990s and United Water with the Brown Liberal Government, anyone?). The tramline and rail extensions begun 10 years ago were all done with the intention of being serviced by totally government owned operators - DPTI and Adelaide Metro.

True, ForestrySA and the LTO were leased, but those billions were/ will be directly poured into the stuff we're enjoying today - Adelaide Oval, rail electrification, North South Corridor, regional road and hospital upgrades...

But back to rail and tram outsourcing. I think it was Muzzamo who pointed out on here back in early July - the savings from this are so little - in the single millions over decades, perhaps - and can only be attained by further cutting wages and cleaning and maintenance standards. It's nothing compared to the record debt this State Liberal Government will have racked up -$21.3 billion by 2022-3. There can be no real reasoning for this other than ideological. Presumably, it's just so their corporate mates can make a quick buck or two.

You can see the emptiness in the faces of Marshall and Knoll already. Premier Steven Marshall was clearly rattled when confronted by Labor's new stance - there's nothing else there for them to say but cliched one-liners; no reasoning or justification for their decision. They were after all pretty hopeless in opposition for 16 years (anyone or here really disagree?), winning government in 2018 only because it was presented to them on a platter with the redistribution. Should anyone be surprised that they are any different in government?

Labor's stance is very different, and a change from what we were expecting from when a government service is privatised/outsourced/franchised the first time. It will be interesting to see how the Government and potential bidders further react.
Look, Peter, I'm sure it works on the blind faithful.

But anyone else with even the slightest amount of consciousness isn't fooled by a self serving narrative.

The election is a few years away, save your propaganda for then

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Re: News & Discussion: Adelaide Metro Trains

#4146 Post by Eurostar » Wed Oct 16, 2019 5:15 pm

According to DPTI website The electrification of Gawler Line is due in late 2020, isn't that slow compared to when poles and wires went up on Seaford and Tonsley Lines. And then we aren't due to have the first electric set until mid 2021. Sounds like the current State Government is dragging it out so they can take credit for it at the 2022 State Election.

I noticed that there is no plans to electrify the Outer Harbor Line, surely electrification of the Outer Harbor Line should be proposed to start in 2021/2022 so unemployment is kept as low as possible and majority of the lines are modernised.

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Re: News & Discussion: Adelaide Metro Trains

#4147 Post by Spotto » Wed Oct 16, 2019 8:50 pm

Eurostar wrote:
Wed Oct 16, 2019 5:15 pm
According to DPTI website The electrification of Gawler Line is due in late 2020, isn't that slow compared to when poles and wires went up on Seaford and Tonsley Lines. And then we aren't due to have the first electric set until mid 2021. Sounds like the current State Government is dragging it out so they can take credit for it at the 2022 State Election.

I noticed that there is no plans to electrify the Outer Harbor Line, surely electrification of the Outer Harbor Line should be proposed to start in 2021/2022 so unemployment is kept as low as possible and majority of the lines are modernised.
The Noarlunga Line (30.2 km) was completely closed from January to December 2013 for electrification, electric stock began running for passengers two months later in February 2014 and the extension to Seaford also opened the same day.

Are they going to be doing a full closure of the Gawler Line (42.2 km), or are they installing the posts and overhead wires as gradual night works instead of a full line closure? The amount of time between completion of works and the first electric trains does sound a bit suss considering last time the gap was only two months.

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Re: News & Discussion: Adelaide Metro Trains

#4148 Post by rubberman » Wed Oct 16, 2019 9:24 pm

Eurostar wrote:
Wed Oct 16, 2019 5:15 pm
According to DPTI website The electrification of Gawler Line is due in late 2020, isn't that slow compared to when poles and wires went up on Seaford and Tonsley Lines. And then we aren't due to have the first electric set until mid 2021. Sounds like the current State Government is dragging it out so they can take credit for it at the 2022 State Election.

I noticed that there is no plans to electrify the Outer Harbor Line, surely electrification of the Outer Harbor Line should be proposed to start in 2021/2022 so unemployment is kept as low as possible and majority of the lines are modernised.
Depends. They might decide that converting the OH line to light rail is a better option. Same with the Belair line.

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Re: News & Discussion: Adelaide Metro Trains

#4149 Post by Eurostar » Wed Oct 16, 2019 10:57 pm

Spotto wrote:
Wed Oct 16, 2019 8:50 pm
Eurostar wrote:
Wed Oct 16, 2019 5:15 pm
According to DPTI website The electrification of Gawler Line is due in late 2020, isn't that slow compared to when poles and wires went up on Seaford and Tonsley Lines. And then we aren't due to have the first electric set until mid 2021. Sounds like the current State Government is dragging it out so they can take credit for it at the 2022 State Election.

I noticed that there is no plans to electrify the Outer Harbor Line, surely electrification of the Outer Harbor Line should be proposed to start in 2021/2022 so unemployment is kept as low as possible and majority of the lines are modernised.
The Noarlunga Line (30.2 km) was completely closed from January to December 2013 for electrification, electric stock began running for passengers two months later in February 2014 and the extension to Seaford also opened the same day.

Are they going to be doing a full closure of the Gawler Line (42.2 km), or are they installing the posts and overhead wires as gradual night works instead of a full line closure? The amount of time between completion of works and the first electric trains does sound a bit suss considering last time the gap was only two months.
There is mention I think in the FAQs that one of the school holidays will be used to close the full or part of the line. If I recall platforms 5-9 in the city have no wires yet and then there is of course the demolition of the King Street bridge at Gawler Central. The recently withdrawn MAN 11.190 buses could be at least used for train subs between Gawler and Gawler Central.

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Re: News & Discussion: Adelaide Metro Trains

#4150 Post by English Electric » Sun Oct 20, 2019 12:02 pm

Here's a question for any commuters on the Gawler line who like to look out of the window.....

Is there evidence of any preparations "on the ground" for the electrification?
You'd expect by now there would be visible activity around surveying, setting out and pouring concrete foundations for cantilever masts and the like. Or maybe preparation of electrification work sites, especially on the part of the route closer to Adelaide.

I wonder if the plan is to run electric trains on the Adelaide/Salisbury section before wiring is complete through to Gawler? There should be enough 4000-class EMUs already available, given the surplus units obtained at the time of opening to Seaford.

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Re: News & Discussion: Adelaide Metro Trains

#4151 Post by [Shuz] » Sun Oct 20, 2019 12:15 pm

Yeah there's these orange looking cylinder things in the ground in sand pits about 30cm diameter spaced every 5m apart or so. I assume these are the base for the poles?
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Re: News & Discussion: Adelaide Metro Trains

#4152 Post by ChillyPhilly » Sun Oct 20, 2019 12:31 pm

[Shuz] wrote:Yeah there's these orange looking cylinder things in the ground in sand pits about 30cm diameter spaced every 5m apart or so. I assume these are the base for the poles?
Conduit is the word you're after there.

What I'm curious about is how the project will deal with the freight line (alongside the Gawler line all the way to Salisbury).
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Re: News & Discussion: Adelaide Metro Trains

#4153 Post by Spotto » Sun Oct 20, 2019 1:09 pm

English Electric wrote:
Sun Oct 20, 2019 12:02 pm
I wonder if the plan is to run electric trains on the Adelaide/Salisbury section before wiring is complete through to Gawler? There should be enough 4000-class EMUs already available, given the surplus units obtained at the time of opening to Seaford.
Doubtful. If the Seaford Line is an indication it was diesel-only until the Seaford extension opened, then electric stock was gradually phased in.

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Re: News & Discussion: Adelaide Metro Trains

#4154 Post by metro » Sun Oct 20, 2019 1:54 pm

English Electric wrote:
Sun Oct 20, 2019 12:02 pm
Here's a question for any commuters on the Gawler line who like to look out of the window.....

Is there evidence of any preparations "on the ground" for the electrification?
You'd expect by now there would be visible activity around surveying, setting out and pouring concrete foundations for cantilever masts and the like. Or maybe preparation of electrification work sites, especially on the part of the route closer to Adelaide.
Between Salisbury and Gawler concrete poles have been put up ready for the overhead wiring.. they've been there since early 2012 :roll:

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Re: News & Discussion: Adelaide Metro Trains

#4155 Post by English Electric » Sun Oct 20, 2019 10:29 pm

ChillyPhilly wrote:
Sun Oct 20, 2019 12:31 pm
What I'm curious about is how the project will deal with the freight line (alongside the Gawler line all the way to Salisbury).
They seemed to manage to electrify the section of the Seaford line directly adjacent to the standard gauge around Gaol Loop/ Mile End and Keswick/Goodwood areas without too many dramas.

Are you thinking that the standard gauge north of Islington has more 24/7 freight movements making electrification activities potentially more dangerous?
At least in the Seaford case, the South line usually had most of its freight passing early morning or late evening and nothing much moving during daylight.

Regarding clearance for double-stack trains, the project probably won't be able to use any portal supports spanning the ARTC line (like they already have around Mile End) anywhere that's north of Islington Yard. But these are probably rarely needed since the Gawler line is mostly simple double-track, except around Dry Creek where there's plenty of "elbow room" for the broad gauge.

South of Islington, if there are any tight locations where portal spans are needed (e.g. Hawker St or Torrens bridge/Wye Cabin areas) no reason these couldn't go across the ARTC line there. Existing 25kV & lots of historic structures already prevent double-stack freight between Adelaide and Melbourne.

Maybe where there's limited lateral clearance between ARTC and Gawler tracks there'll be a lot of Twin Track Cantilevers, with the bases on the eastern side. Or concrete masts installed between the two broad gauge tracks, like they have between Clarence Park and Emerson.

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