New Adelaide public transport hub

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Goodsy
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Re: New Adelaide public transport hub

#16 Post by Goodsy » Sat Oct 26, 2019 3:59 pm

andynguyen wrote:
Sat Oct 26, 2019 3:37 pm
Goodsy wrote:
Sat Oct 26, 2019 10:32 am
We shouldn't hold back the transportation needs of a city to save a few already dying rail services.

Dig out a huge cavern under the old GPO building on Vic Square and turn it into our central station.
Victoria Square is not the ideal location for a central station for the following reasons:

- Old GPO building is heritage listed

So? I'm not advocating for the the demolition of it

- Potential loss of valuable open space

It's entirely underground. The only disruption would be during construction

- Traffic congestion in the CBD due to buses entering/exiting the station

You're greatly overestimating how many buses would use it. There's no reason for suburban buses to converge on a single terminal.
Southern cross station seems to cope just fine

- All platforms have to be completely underground, which is unsuitable for diesel trains due to exhaust fumes

get rid of the diesel trains or switch the interstate fleet to bi-mode trains such as the BR class 802

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Re: New Adelaide public transport hub

#17 Post by SBD » Sat Oct 26, 2019 10:29 pm

andynguyen wrote:
Sat Oct 26, 2019 1:26 pm
SBD wrote:
Fri Oct 25, 2019 11:51 pm
...

Do your remarks about Renmark assume the historic route via Tailem Bend and Karoonda, or a new route?

A viable new route could be on the old Morgan route, then joining the old route from Barmera via Berri to Renmark, and linking to the revamped Victorian network at Mildura (possibly on the old Morkalla route).
Those options you've mentioned could be possible if there's demand for it and population growth in Renmark and surrounding areas. The rail route via Tailem Bend could carry lower costs since it uses much of an existing rail alignment and higher benefits since it could be connected with future high speed rail services from Melbourne. Alternatively, Renmark could be serviced via a bus direct from Adelaide, or connect with trains from Barossa or Murray Bridge.
Any rail to the Riverland via the current Adelaide Hills line is not viable as it cannot compete with trucks and buses on the Sturt Highway.

Using the proposed Globelink route to get to Tailem Bend to use the existing formations to Waikerie, Loxton or Renmark/Berri/Barmera would be better, but possibly still marginal compared to the highway, and only one of the three branches north would be used. Berri is the largest town, but the loop to Renmark might make it slower than the bus anyway.

Ideally, a new railway would be meaningful for passenger trips within the Riverland as well as for connections to Adelaide.

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Re: New Adelaide public transport hub

#18 Post by [Shuz] » Sun Oct 27, 2019 8:05 am

The underground station for Adelaide Railway Station will go beneath the walkway that goes underneath North Terrace. Central island configuration, will become the new Platforms 1 and 2, and the existing Platforms 1-9 will become 3-11.
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Re: New Adelaide public transport hub

#19 Post by ginzahikari » Sun Oct 27, 2019 12:47 pm

[Shuz] wrote:
Sun Oct 27, 2019 8:05 am
The underground station for Adelaide Railway Station will go beneath the walkway that goes underneath North Terrace. Central island configuration, will become the new Platforms 1 and 2, and the existing Platforms 1-9 will become 3-11.
Hopefully they can futureproof it by building 4 platforms (2 island) throughout the underground city loop.

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Re: New Adelaide public transport hub

#20 Post by Ho Really » Sun Oct 27, 2019 6:57 pm

Andy's concept is interesting but not practical. The idea of having a bus interchange is great but having curved platforms is not. The ARTC loop is very tight. An interchange would've been perfect west of the Morphett Street Bridge (as I envisaged early on the S-A Forum) and if one of the two lines actually went north of the station where you now find the remodelled Convention Centre, SkyCity and Festival Plaza. Unfortunately no vision. The other line obviously runs between the university buildings but not along North Terrace like in the current plan.

Anyhow we need to give him credit though for trying. Also for setting the cat out amongst the pigeons. As for some of you, you aren't thinking outside the square.

As I'm overseas I'm unable to post what should be Adelaide's metro system based on the current Gawler-Seaford and Outer Harbor-Belair lines. That means both lines not only Gawler-Seaford that its envisaged running down North Terrace and looping back through the city CBD then onto Keswick. Remember it is not a loop like in Melbourne. Trains must go through the city and go north-south/south-north, not return where they came from.

We also need to look at expansion and where it is currently possible to have underground stations and service all the more important locations and where TODs can be easily established. Also taking into consideration where they can be built easily without too much disturbance. If Adelaide is serious then they need to look at the bigger picture. We don't want tokenism like we seem to do everything. This needs to stop and Adelaide needs to be a leader not a follower.

Give me a few weeks and when back in November I'll access my desktop and I'll post several concepts you can all look over and discuss. Then give an objective opinion.

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Re: New Adelaide public transport hub

#21 Post by 1NEEDS2POST » Sun Oct 27, 2019 8:23 pm

The question is do we want all the services under one roof, or spread among the city. What is something we can all agree on is that all the parts need to be connected. The current arrangement doesn't connect all the parts:
  • The Parklands rail terminal is disconnected from public transport
  • The coach terminal is disconnected from the suburban railways
However, the suburban railways and suburban buses aren't difficult to transfer between. ARS to Currie St isn't far. Also, the airport bus to the suburban trains and coach terminal isn't far.

Suburban buses, the airport bus and suburban railways make multiple stops in Adelaide. So we have three destinations (airport, Parklands terminal and coach terminal) but no one will be transferring between all three at once. So the network only needs to be designed to transfer between two out of three. Putting everything under one roof is redundant because no one needs to transfer between so many modes of transport. If we build the network so that transfers take place in a few different parts of the city, things can be more conveniently located and the passenger load can be spread out over a wider area.

This is one solution I suggest:
  • Make a walkway between the Parklands terminal and Adelaide Showground railway station. It's a short walk.
  • Move the coach terminal to the bus depot on Currie St.
  • New bus route from the airport to Richmond Rd, Parklands terminal, Anzac Highway and then Currie St.
Everything is now connected at minimal expense.

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Re: New Adelaide public transport hub

#22 Post by Ho Really » Mon Oct 28, 2019 1:54 am

1NEEDS2POST wrote:
Sun Oct 27, 2019 8:23 pm
[...]
If we build the network so that transfers take place in a few different parts of the city, things can be more conveniently located and the passenger load can be spread out over a wider area.
I agree and that's how it should be. No central location is required to cover trains (suburban/regional/interstate), buses, coaches (regional/interstate) and trams. Spread out with the right connections yes.
This is one solution I suggest:
Make a walkway between the Parklands terminal and Adelaide Showground railway station. It's a short walk.
Move the coach terminal to the bus depot on Currie St.
New bus route from the airport to Richmond Rd, Parklands terminal, Anzac Highway and then Currie St.

Everything is now connected at minimal expense.
In the short term it's OK and a very inexpensive solution, but I can see something better.

Cheers
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Re: New Adelaide public transport hub

#23 Post by SBD » Mon Oct 28, 2019 12:52 pm

1NEEDS2POST wrote:
Sun Oct 27, 2019 8:23 pm
The question is do we want all the services under one roof, or spread among the city. What is something we can all agree on is that all the parts need to be connected. The current arrangement doesn't connect all the parts:
  • The Parklands rail terminal is disconnected from public transport
  • The coach terminal is disconnected from the suburban railways
However, the suburban railways and suburban buses aren't difficult to transfer between. ARS to Currie St isn't far. Also, the airport bus to the suburban trains and coach terminal isn't far.

Suburban buses, the airport bus and suburban railways make multiple stops in Adelaide. So we have three destinations (airport, Parklands terminal and coach terminal) but no one will be transferring between all three at once. So the network only needs to be designed to transfer between two out of three. Putting everything under one roof is redundant because no one needs to transfer between so many modes of transport. If we build the network so that transfers take place in a few different parts of the city, things can be more conveniently located and the passenger load can be spread out over a wider area.

This is one solution I suggest:
  • Make a walkway between the Parklands terminal and Adelaide Showground railway station. It's a short walk.
  • Move the coach terminal to the bus depot on Currie St.
  • New bus route from the airport to Richmond Rd, Parklands terminal, Anzac Highway and then Currie St.
Everything is now connected at minimal expense.
There is currently undercover/indoor pedestrian access from stepping off the train to the north side of Hindley Street. Ideally, this should continue under Hindley Street through to an underground/indoor bus station on Currie Street that includes a stop for every route that goes through (is that six stops each side?). Adelaide weather is not as extreme as some cities, but can still be pretty unpleasant in both summer and winter.

A roofed and airconditioned Leigh Street could be part of the plan if there aren't enough available building basements to link up.

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Re: New Adelaide public transport hub

#24 Post by Bob » Mon Oct 28, 2019 4:32 pm

You can always submit your ideas to Infrastructure SA…

Bear in mind some of the basic parameters I think you will find they are looking at, and unlikely to change in their planning, include:

The proposed CBD underground rail loop that allows through running with the three proposed stations – Adelaide, Hindmarsh Sq and Victoria Sq-Central Mkt, and to address specific future high-volume passenger journey start/stop & transfer points at:
Hindmarsh Sq – rail & O’Bahn
Victoria Sq – rail & tram
Adelaide – rail & tram

Rail lines – keep in mind volumes - descending order in current passenger volumes – Gawler, Seaford, Outer Harbor, Flinders (anticipated volume), Belair, and the lowest usage, the Grange branch line - which may not exist by the time a CBD rail loop is built. To put into perspective, the current O’Bahn weekday passenger trips is approx 35K now, Gawler line >20K and Seaford <20K. The other existing lines combined approx 20K. Extension of Gawler & Seaford lines will happen, just a case of how many years away in their planning. I put volumes forward as they obviously influence planning.


Tram lines - extension to North Adelaide still in the long-term plan, but another case of how many years away, same for the City Loop, but more complex because there is no consensus on the best & final route yet within the CBD.


New creative ideas on how to link other existing transit points, such as Parklands Rail Terminal and Central Bus Station are worthwhile, but don’t expect any massive shift in the basics of the overall CBD plan. For example, you won’t get a new transport hub elsewhere in the CBD, just won’t happen, but at the same time creative ideas on how to return non-suburban trains to Adelaide may be worthwhile. Or a plan on how to better manage the Grenfell / Currie St PT high volume corridor etc…that sort of thing worth spending your time on if you want to be realistic.


Just trying to put some reality back into the discussion, to save peoples time.

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Re: New Adelaide public transport hub

#25 Post by [Shuz] » Mon Oct 28, 2019 5:23 pm

With the Australia Post site on West Terrace / Grote Street up for sale, Renewal SA should buy out the site and make a mixed use development out of it similar to what they did at Bowden. A provision could be made for a West Terrace station as part of the CBD loop.
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Re: New Adelaide public transport hub

#26 Post by Ho Really » Mon Oct 28, 2019 5:44 pm

Bob wrote:
Mon Oct 28, 2019 4:32 pm
You can always submit your ideas to Infrastructure SA…

Bear in mind some of the basic parameters I think you will find they are looking at, and unlikely to change in their planning, include:

[...]

Just trying to put some reality back into the discussion, to save peoples time.
That's the problem we have it's small town mentality and if anything is done it's for short term gains. Not you Bob but those planning public transport infrastructure in this state. We could do a whole lot better. Adelaide will remain the best planned city in the world that will be screwed up by people who have no vision.

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Re: New Adelaide public transport hub

#27 Post by Ho Really » Mon Oct 28, 2019 5:50 pm

[Shuz] wrote:
Mon Oct 28, 2019 5:23 pm
With the Australia Post site on West Terrace / Grote Street up for sale, Renewal SA should buy out the site and make a mixed use development out of it similar to what they did at Bowden. A provision could be made for a West Terrace station as part of the CBD loop.
Perhaps or a tram. Remember that trams don't need to run on rails and have a catenary system. Tests in China have shown the system does work. Sydney has been looking at these as an alternative to their very expensive light rail. So keep that in mind. Of course if there are empty blocks of land an underground station should be built as a priority as long as the line travels through there. Adelaide and any Australian city should look at how Singapore and Hong Kong (to a lesser extent) on how they've planned their respective MRTs and MTRs. All city planning should be done at three levels, underground, ground level and above ground. Simple. Adelaide needs to be serious about this especially with our summers getting hotter people will be outside less. Think about it.

Cheers
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Re: New Adelaide public transport hub

#28 Post by SRW » Mon Oct 28, 2019 5:59 pm

It's a shame we're not preparing to build underground rail soon as there's a perfect opportunity to design a Victoria Square/Central Market station with the upcoming arcade redevelopment.
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Re: New Adelaide public transport hub

#29 Post by Ho Really » Mon Oct 28, 2019 6:06 pm

SRW wrote:
Mon Oct 28, 2019 5:59 pm
It's a shame we're not preparing to build underground rail soon as there's a perfect opportunity to design a Victoria Square/Central Market station with the upcoming arcade redevelopment.
Not saying there should be an underground station in Victoria Square, there are many alternatives available to Adelaide if a subway system was planned. However underground arcades and building basements should all be connected. Adelaide should look at how Montreal did this a long time ago because of their cold winters and how Singapore and Hong Kong have done this because of heat/humidity, monsoonal rain or typhoons. In our case heat is our enemy.

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Re: New Adelaide public transport hub

#30 Post by 1NEEDS2POST » Mon Oct 28, 2019 6:13 pm

SBD wrote:
Mon Oct 28, 2019 12:52 pm
There is currently undercover/indoor pedestrian access from stepping off the train to the north side of Hindley Street. Ideally, this should continue under Hindley Street through to an underground/indoor bus station on Currie Street that includes a stop for every route that goes through (is that six stops each side?). Adelaide weather is not as extreme as some cities, but can still be pretty unpleasant in both summer and winter.

A roofed and airconditioned Leigh Street could be part of the plan if there aren't enough available building basements to link up.
The central market to railway station walkway could be put entirely below ground. This will make it faster and more comfortable for pedestrians. When the Victoria Square railway station is built, it could connect with this walkway.

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