Beer Garden

[Ho Really]

https://www.smh.com.au/business/workpla ... 54hh0.html

I spoke of this earlier in the thread/or on another thread. Big potential ramifications for new office projects in the future.

This quote from the article sums up why the status quo will continue: "If we wanted to work like this before COVID-19, we could have been doing it".

Logically not all business and work can be done from home. Office environments especially the more modern ones can be more productive than working at home. I think good (cheap and reliable) public transport is more of an issue for office workers.

I like the following articles: How Your Office Space Impacts Employee Well-Being, and 15 things that make for a great office environment.

Humans in general like to interact. We are social animals. So I would think the office will be around for a while longer.

Cheers

[Ho Really]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Le_rfTdayLs

Interesting doco by the Epoch Times, "Tracking Down the Origin of the Wuhan Coronavirus". Read stuff earlier from different sources with similar allegations. Unfortunately, without the right people speaking out (those in the scientific community: virologists, epidemiologists, biologists, immunologists etc.), and journalists on the ground, the CCP can continue to cover up the truth and disseminate fake news.

Cheers

[OlympusAnt]

and unlike Chernobyl which accelerated the downfall of the USSR, this will just be a small "blip" for that country

[rev]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Le_rfTdayLs

Interesting doco by the Epoch Times, "Tracking Down the Origin of the Wuhan Coronavirus". Read stuff earlier from different sources with similar allegations. Unfortunately, without the right people speaking out (those in the scientific community: virologists, epidemiologists, biologists, immunologists etc.), and journalists on the ground, the CCP can continue to cover up the truth and disseminate fake news.

Cheers

Well the right people have spoken up, but the Chinese communist regime has silenced those in China. Outside of China they have the WHO in their pockets so the WHO does their dirty work for them. Taiwan for example was warning about the virus many months ago, but the WHO prevented the truth from getting out, because the WHO just toes the Chinese communist party line.
Remember, it was the Trump administration that wanted to impose travel restrictions on China, and I think they may have early on. But it was China who lashed out first, and then the corrupt/complicit WHO said that travel bans weren't needed.

and unlike Chernobyl which accelerated the downfall of the USSR, this will just be a small "blip" for that country

While it wont bring down communist China, it will result in many if not all of the western powers bringing back quite a bit of their manufacturing to their home soil. The USA has been doing it since before the virus, and is continuing to do it now.
Japan recently announced that they would fund their corporations bringing back manufacturing to Japan from China. And there's a lot of debate going on about the fact that this insane dependence on a country like China ruled by a communist dictatorship has hurt us during such a time. Many countries will look to become more self sufficient for anything that is deemed critical to national security & sovereignty.
A huge chunk of their export market will disappear as a result of this pandemic. Can their own domestic consumer market make up the short fall?

The US consumer market is over 13 trillion dollars. The EU is over 9 trillion. China is over 4 trillion.
Their economic growth has come off the back of de-industrializing the west and industrializing them. That's been slowly reversed, and the pace of that reversal is only going to increase from here on in.

[rev]

Strange coming from Downer out of all people.

Alexander Downer says the west must ‘ram home’ to China that COVID-19 is just not acceptable
Stephen Drill in London, News Corp Australia Network
April 15, 2020 5:58pm
Subscriber only

Former Liberal leader Alexander Downer says China’s coronavirus cover up must be stopped with an urgent independent investigation.

In an extraordinary hard line stance, Mr Downer has demanded western countries “ram home” to China that it was losing its “prestige” because of the coronavirus.

And he demanded that G7 countries, which include the UK, the United States, Japan, Italy, Canada, France and Germany, work together to stand up to China.

He said British Prime Minister Boris Johnson was most likely able to patch together a strong stance once he had recovered from COVID-19.

Mr Downer drew a line in the sand during a Policy Exchange conference early on Wednesday Australian time.

“This coronavirus crisis is a huge blow to China’s prestige. Ordinary people feel very strongly about the huge damage that has been done to us all as a result of what began in China,” he said.

Mr Downer said there were theories that it started in a wet market in Wuhan, or escaped from a science laboratory, that needed to be tested.

And he warned that China was risking its future trade with the world.

“This is a pretty rough thing to say but I think we need to ram that home to them, we need to make it perfectly clear that if any country wants to trade with the international community and engage with the international community they are extremely welcome but there are certain standards that have to be met,” he said.

“We need to ram that message home to them in a pretty brutal diplomatic way.”

Almost 2 million people have now been infected with COVID-19, which was first found in December in Wuhan, China.

China reported 3,345 deaths from 83,306 cases, in figures that are now widely suspected of being significantly underestimated.

Li Wenliang, a doctor who warned his colleagues about the virus on December 30 last year, was forced to retract his statement by Chinese authorities.

He said in an interview with the New York Times before he died of COVID-19 in February that there should be more “openness and transparency” in China.

Retired United States Lt Gen H. R. McMaster said in the Policy Exchange debate that the world was “delusional” if it thought the Chinese Communist Party would become more democratic as the country became wealthier.

“China’s communist party is perfecting this Orwellian police state,” he said.

“This is an authoritative dictatorship that is trying to extend its exclusive grip on power.”

China has been sending masks and other medical equipment as a sign of its goodwill, but much of it was faulty, Lt Gen McMaster added.

He urged western countries to better sell their story of foreign aid as they came out of their coronavirus peaks.

Former British Foreign Secretary William Hague said the world needed to reconsider its supply chain to avoid relying on China.

He warned China had a stranglehold on some metals that were used to make batteries, which would become crucial as the world moved to electric cars.

India would become a key ally in balancing China’s power and “must succeed”, Lt Gen McMaster added.

https://www.adelaidenow.com.au/coronavi ... d69b828f96

[SBD]

Australia has had cases of Hendra virus jump from flying foxes to horses to humans, with fatal effects on both. If a version had emerged with lower mortality in humans, and capable of spreading from one human to another, before this year, I wonder if would Australia have been prepared to react as hard and fast as China did. We can look back now and say it should have been more open and faster, but would we have been any better if the shoe was on our foot? Would we do it now?

[rev]

https://www.gopetition.com/petitions/bl ... lines.html

Sign the petition.
I think we're in a national emergency now, caused by sars2.0 thanks to China, whose now using the opportunity to dominate economies and industries by buying up struggling companies on the cheap.

China shouldn't be allowed to use a single cent again in Australia (or any western country).

Virgin is obviously the most high profile one so far that will get the most attention.

This needs to be stopped at any cost. If that cost is we the tax payer bail out Virgin and othet airlines, so be it. As long as China isnt able to take control.

[how good is he]

China already own 40% of Virgin Australia and if you include Singapore (Airlines) it’s 60% then add Etihad it’s 81% then add Branson/Virgin UK it’s 91% .. so its majority overseas owned as it is.

See https://www.forbes.com/sites/willhorton ... 68f9ce3ffc

So if the Australian Govt bail them out they are actually helping majority overseas companies/countries. Further Virgin Australia had I think $5 billion in debt before the Coronavirus with big past losses and some said it was almost insolvent anyway.

[[Shuz]]

Is there a reason why another operator can't just come into the market and replace Virgin? Or are both airlines (Qantas) subsidised by the government? Is Qantas majority Australian owned?

[rev]

Is there a reason why another operator can't just come into the market and replace Virgin? Or are both airlines (Qantas) subsidised by the government? Is Qantas majority Australian owned?

https://simplywall.st/stocks/au/transpo ... ed-asxqan/

That's what I could find from a brief search.

I think the federal government would have to approve another airline coming in to operate as a domestic carrier. CASA would probably get a say of some sort, and whatever other governing or regulator bodies if any others exist for the industry.

The government has thrown them $165, from what I understood of it it's to subsidize about 2 months worth of flights (that obviously aren't happening).

[Norman]

Is there a reason why another operator can't just come into the market and replace Virgin? Or are both airlines (Qantas) subsidised by the government? Is Qantas majority Australian owned?

https://simplywall.st/stocks/au/transpo ... ed-asxqan/

That's what I could find from a brief search.

I think the federal government would have to approve another airline coming in to operate as a domestic carrier. CASA would probably get a say of some sort, and whatever other governing or regulator bodies if any others exist for the industry.

The government has thrown them $165, from what I understood of it it's to subsidize about 2 months worth of flights (that obviously aren't happening).

The flights ARE happening. For example, Virgin were only operating 6 return flights per week between Sydney and Melbourne, but they have now expanded their network back to 65 flights per week, including 3 return flights between Adelaide and Melbourne. This is to support people flying back home from interstate or to visit critically ill family members.

[rev]

China already own 40% of Virgin Australia and if you include Singapore (Airlines) it’s 60% then add Etihad it’s 81% then add Branson/Virgin UK it’s 91% .. so its majority overseas owned as it is.

See https://www.forbes.com/sites/willhorton ... 68f9ce3ffc

So if the Australian Govt bail them out they are actually helping majority overseas companies/countries. Further Virgin Australia had I think $5 billion in debt before the Coronavirus with big past losses and some said it was almost insolvent anyway.

It's not about not allowing or having foreign ownership or investment. It's about allowing and having the right foreign ownership.
China is not a friend to Australia. It is not an allied country. Their values and principles on pretty much everything are the opposite of ours.
They are openly hostile towards us, they threatened to shoot down our planes and sink our ships in international waters in the south china sea, the ccp military hacks our government departments and agencies, conducts espionage and spying on us, and it's at the point where people of Chinese descent don't feel safe in Australia from the CCP's tentacles.
By trading with them and allowing them to gain financially from investments in Australia, we are helping them build up their military which is being pointed at us and used to threaten our country.
By allowing them to gain such a large foothold in many of our industries, we are by default helping the communist regime to deny people in China their basic human rights and abuse various minorities.
We cant go around removing other dictators in Middle Eastern countries, sighting human rights violations and such as the reasons, while turning a blind eye the massive human rights violations going on in China. That's why we need to cut our trade and dependence on China ASAP. The USA is doing it, now Japan is doing it. Two of our major allies. Why aren't we?
By continuing to trade with them so heavily, and being so reliant on their manufacturing (while ours has been decimated), we are in a compromised position. And therefore the government (if it ever grows a real set of balls) can't do anything to hold China accountable, and China knows it. Anything the government does say is merely lip service, because there is no backbone to those words.

As for Virgin, yeh they're in big debt. I don't think the company is even valued at anywhere close to a billion dollars at the moment let alone before the covid crisis.
And they want a billion dollar bail out from the government.
If the government is to bail them out, I think that should involve taking the share the Chinese own (not giving them the money, just boot them out already).

[rev]

Is there a reason why another operator can't just come into the market and replace Virgin? Or are both airlines (Qantas) subsidised by the government? Is Qantas majority Australian owned?

https://simplywall.st/stocks/au/transpo ... ed-asxqan/

That's what I could find from a brief search.

I think the federal government would have to approve another airline coming in to operate as a domestic carrier. CASA would probably get a say of some sort, and whatever other governing or regulator bodies if any others exist for the industry.

The government has thrown them $165, from what I understood of it it's to subsidize about 2 months worth of flights (that obviously aren't happening).

The flights ARE happening. For example, Virgin were only operating 6 return flights per week between Sydney and Melbourne, but they have now expanded their network back to 65 flights per week, including 3 return flights between Adelaide and Melbourne. This is to support people flying back home from interstate or to visit critically ill family members.

Oh yeh I wasn't aware there were still flights nor that they had increased them again, good to know.

[Norman]

I agree that we should very thoroughly research and analyse any further Chinese (especially state-owned) investment into Virgin or other major companies. We may even stop new state-owned investments into Australia. But we shouldn't kick out the people who have already legally invested money. If we start at Virgin, where does it end?

I fear that, if Australia and other western countries does significantly interfere with existing Chinese investment or significantly block trade, the result can only be all or any of the following:
-A collapse of the Australian economy
-A change of ideology from a market-based economy to a socialist/state economy
-World War 3

China shouldn't be completely banned or kicked out, as good as that might sound to some. I too have reservations about their actions and motives. But we need to manage this relationship, not detonate it.

I must declare that I am by no means an international relations expert (I only did one elective back at Uni), but this is how I would see it.

[zippySA]

Agree totally Norman - geopolitics is not solved by isolation and aggressive acts (even against nations that may act aggressively - or in a manner we interpret as aggressive / not in our interest).

I've posted before on this and it applies more broadly than to just China-West relations - the world is a small place and we need markets to sell our goods (yes - mainly materials) to sustain our living standards (and which are by any measure extremely high and good compared to vast majority of world).

The best approach is to have clear and consistent rules of engagement - don't be afraid to say what we will and will not accept but we must be reasonable - every nation has a unique culture and approach to these things - we are not always 100% right (or righteous). But engage we must - isolation and punitive measures are the pre-cursers to greater conflict and debilitating nationalism - and that leads to bad outcomes.

I have a dream* (*credit to Dr Martin L-King) - we believe we are a smart / intelligent bunch in Australia - so how about we out-think, out-smart and out-play the Chinese and others across the globe - I much prefer to work hard and smart and be at the top of the game - and this position gives you much more leverage to get your way in my view. I sincerely hope that one outcome of all this is that Australia and Australians use this time to re-set our thinking and strategies and re-discover how we can be world-beaters in a whole range of industries and markets - we are blessed with all the right ingredients - we just need to find better ways to leverage them.