News & Discussion: Electricity Infrastructure

Threads relating to transport, water, etc. within the CBD and Metropolitan area.
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rubberman
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Re: News & Discussion: Electricity Infrastructure

#1606 Post by rubberman » Fri Apr 26, 2024 7:45 am

mattblack wrote:
Thu Apr 25, 2024 9:39 pm
rubberman wrote:
Thu Apr 25, 2024 8:17 pm
abc wrote:
Thu Apr 25, 2024 6:24 pm


people can read the article and make up their own minds, however you dictated what that opinion would be with your original comment
I encourage you to actually read the article.

The Energy Regulator provided a graph to show wholesale cost reduction due to renewables. So, I provided what was literally a "spoiler".

I mean what do you understand from a graph from a regulator showing that the wholesale price of power has gone down?
The Regulator is an activist and has an agenda :roll:
I'm sure the usual suspects will try that one.

If only there weren't sites which anyone could actually verify wholesale prices being paid. Oh wait... :hilarious:

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Re: News & Discussion: Electricity Infrastructure

#1607 Post by abc » Fri Apr 26, 2024 11:11 am

SBD wrote:
Thu Apr 25, 2024 11:30 pm
abc wrote:
Thu Apr 25, 2024 6:24 pm
rubberman wrote:
Thu Apr 25, 2024 5:24 pm


That what's called an "ad hominem" logical fallacy.

People can read the article and make up their own minds. Obviously, some people cannot be reasoned with.
people can read the article and make up their own minds, however you dictated what that opinion would be with your original comment
The point I saw was that high retail prices are because retailers have to build in a margin to cover "high price events" when the actual spot price jumps from an average of $90 to a spike as high as $10994. We've seen massive business collapses in other industries with variable-price inputs and fixed price outputs (eg builders, cafes). Energy retailers need to build in a margin to avoid going the same way.

The article gives an example of a cause for these high-price events in Queensland was that one of the large coal-fired generators is not reliable, and the price spiked each time it broke down.

It's not clear if coal is a driving feature here or if it could happen to anything. That power station is only just over 20 years old, so newer than most. I guess most coal (and nuclear) power stations drop a larger amount of generation in one swoop if they fail.
suddenly they're not reliable after 100 years... but wind turbines that only work when the wind blows a certain speed range are reliable

you can't make this up

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Re: News & Discussion: Electricity Infrastructure

#1608 Post by rubberman » Fri Apr 26, 2024 11:54 am

abc wrote:
Fri Apr 26, 2024 11:11 am
SBD wrote:
Thu Apr 25, 2024 11:30 pm
abc wrote:
Thu Apr 25, 2024 6:24 pm


people can read the article and make up their own minds, however you dictated what that opinion would be with your original comment
The point I saw was that high retail prices are because retailers have to build in a margin to cover "high price events" when the actual spot price jumps from an average of $90 to a spike as high as $10994. We've seen massive business collapses in other industries with variable-price inputs and fixed price outputs (eg builders, cafes). Energy retailers need to build in a margin to avoid going the same way.

The article gives an example of a cause for these high-price events in Queensland was that one of the large coal-fired generators is not reliable, and the price spiked each time it broke down.

It's not clear if coal is a driving feature here or if it could happen to anything. That power station is only just over 20 years old, so newer than most. I guess most coal (and nuclear) power stations drop a larger amount of generation in one swoop if they fail.
suddenly they're not reliable after 100 years... but wind turbines that only work when the wind blows a certain speed range are reliable

you can't make this up
Correct! You can't make it up. It is basic Maintenance Engineering 101. Every person who has a car knows it. You get to a point where the car is unreliable, and yes it breaks down. For coal fired plants, that's about now. Yep. No need to make anything up. It's real life.

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Algernon
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Re: News & Discussion: Electricity Infrastructure

#1609 Post by Algernon » Fri Apr 26, 2024 9:32 pm

abc wrote:
Fri Apr 26, 2024 11:11 am
SBD wrote:
Thu Apr 25, 2024 11:30 pm
abc wrote:
Thu Apr 25, 2024 6:24 pm


people can read the article and make up their own minds, however you dictated what that opinion would be with your original comment
The point I saw was that high retail prices are because retailers have to build in a margin to cover "high price events" when the actual spot price jumps from an average of $90 to a spike as high as $10994. We've seen massive business collapses in other industries with variable-price inputs and fixed price outputs (eg builders, cafes). Energy retailers need to build in a margin to avoid going the same way.

The article gives an example of a cause for these high-price events in Queensland was that one of the large coal-fired generators is not reliable, and the price spiked each time it broke down.

It's not clear if coal is a driving feature here or if it could happen to anything. That power station is only just over 20 years old, so newer than most. I guess most coal (and nuclear) power stations drop a larger amount of generation in one swoop if they fail.
suddenly they're not reliable after 100 years... but wind turbines that only work when the wind blows a certain speed range are reliable

you can't make this up
Funny. You haven't mentioned nuclear in a while.

Because the topic was the thing you're really talking about when you're talking about nuclear. Coal.

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Re: News & Discussion: Electricity Infrastructure

#1610 Post by bits » Fri Apr 26, 2024 10:13 pm


abc wrote: suddenly they're not reliable after 100 years... but wind turbines that only work when the wind blows a certain speed range are reliable
What do you mean by suddenly after 100 years they are not reliable?

One trick winds farms have is the sheer quantity of small turbines. If one fails it makes little difference. If 5 break it is almost nothing. But a single turbine at a large coal plant failing is a huge loss of generation.

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Re: News & Discussion: Electricity Infrastructure

#1611 Post by SBD » Sat Apr 27, 2024 12:44 am

abc wrote:
Fri Apr 26, 2024 11:11 am
SBD wrote:
Thu Apr 25, 2024 11:30 pm
abc wrote:
Thu Apr 25, 2024 6:24 pm


people can read the article and make up their own minds, however you dictated what that opinion would be with your original comment
The point I saw was that high retail prices are because retailers have to build in a margin to cover "high price events" when the actual spot price jumps from an average of $90 to a spike as high as $10994. We've seen massive business collapses in other industries with variable-price inputs and fixed price outputs (eg builders, cafes). Energy retailers need to build in a margin to avoid going the same way.

The article gives an example of a cause for these high-price events in Queensland was that one of the large coal-fired generators is not reliable, and the price spiked each time it broke down.

It's not clear if coal is a driving feature here or if it could happen to anything. That power station is only just over 20 years old, so newer than most. I guess most coal (and nuclear) power stations drop a larger amount of generation in one swoop if they fail.
suddenly they're not reliable after 100 years... but wind turbines that only work when the wind blows a certain speed range are reliable

you can't make this up
You didn't highlight the preceding two words "one of". Specifically Callide C which is only 20 years old - it's one of Australia's newest coal fired power stations, and yet according to the report behind the link in that article, Callide C has failed multiple times and is identified as one of the contributors to price spikes.

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Re: News & Discussion: Electricity Infrastructure

#1612 Post by mattblack » Mon Apr 29, 2024 3:53 pm

Greenhill Energy wants to turn your waste into hydrogen power

A more than $400 million plan from Greenhill Energy will divert up to 200,000 tonnes of waste per year from Australian landfills according to managing director Nicholas Mumford, who has big ideas for his Adelaide-based firm.

With nine years at Santos under his belt and further experience at energy giant Shell, Nicholas Mumford is well-acquainted with the energy sector.

It was this time at Santos and Shell – the latter being one of the world’s biggest polluters – that inspired his work at Adelaide energy company Greenhill Energy.

The firm, based at Burnside, announced last year it would construct a $425 million integrated waste-to-hydrogen processing plant at Tailem Bend, south-east of Adelaide.

There the company will be able to divert up to 200,000 tonnes of waste from landfill once the facility is at full capacity, reducing greenhouse gas emissions in turn.

The Riverbend Energy Hub will turn waste and biomass into high-value products like fertilisers and synthetic fuels, and will also produce low-cost clean hydrogen for use in emission-free power and transport.

Speaking to InDaily, the managing director – who co-founded the business alongside chief technical officer Dr John Thomas – said his journey to starting Greenhill Energy was inspired by wanting to “address the broader climate change and emission reductions” issues.

“One of the drivers was to get out into the bigger wider world to be able to affect change quicker and more radically than I could sitting in a large corporate,” he said.

His decision to focus on hydrogen was made to avoid going for the “low-hanging fruit” like solar, and he was excited by hydrogen’s potential as a fuel source.

“Hydrogen is the jack of all trades, but it’s not the silver bullet for everything,” he said.

“Over the years hydrogen has been underutilised as a solution, simply because it’s been cost-prohibitive. I come from an oil and gas background and in many ways, hydrogen is very similar to oil and gas: it runs through pipelines, you have a similar set of standards for safety and hazard identification and so forth.

“A lot of the process, skills and background for oil and gas applies to the hydrogen sector. If we’re thinking about jobs into the future, a lot of the industry, the suppliers, the individuals that are in the oil and gas sector now in Australia and globally, for them to transition into a hydrogen-led economy in an emission-free sector then that transition is not a massive step.”

At the centre of Greenhill Energy’s plans is a $425 million integrated waste-to-hydrogen processing facility at Tailem Bend.

Once finished, it will be the first of its kind in Australia able to convert landfill waste and sustainable biomass into other products and clean hydrogen for use in power and transport.

The facility will sit on 20 hectares of land and should be fully operational within five years from now. Once at full capacity, it is expected to be able to manufacture more than 100,000 tonnes of urea fertilisers.

The project has State Government crown sponsorship, and, pending approvals, in 2025 the company will have constructed a singular gasifier that will be able to process 60,000 tonnes of waste per year – equivalent to about 1500 fully loaded semi-trailer trucks.

The company estimates about 300 jobs will be created during construction and once completed about 50 to 100 direct jobs.

In March, the company announced it had partnered with the City of West Torrens, Solo Resource Recovery and Peats Soil and Garden Supplies to establish a demonstration pilot program.

That demo will see the pre-processing of waste at the Adelaide Waste & Recycling Centre at North Plympton, followed by the processing of material to produce syngas using the University of Adelaide’s existing gasification facilities at its Thebarton campus.

“This partnership was formed with a broader vision to build an industrial scale facility to convert landfill waste into high-value products, such as clean hydrogen,” Mumford said at the time.

“This process will effectively mature Australia’s circular economy and contribute to considerable emission reductions in Australia’s waste sector.”

According to the International Energy Agency, methane is responsible for about 30 per cent of the rise in global temperatures post-industrial revolution.

“It’s a massive issue across the globe,” he said.

“We need to reduce our emissions a lot quicker than what we’re doing globally to hit our net zero targets, and we need to target the industries that have the biggest bang for your buck for the biggest impact.

“By diverting waste away from landfill, you’re not producing methane emissions. You put it through a process that does have a level of CO2 emission, but those CO2 emissions are utilised in an end-to-end process because we’re manufacturing products – higher-value products – from the material.”

He said his process “ticks a lot of boxes” in one go, “and provides jobs for the local community as well”.

The process he’s using has been adopted internationally, he said, but the urea fertiliser component of Greenhill’s project is “unique”.

“The downstream technology for urea is very conventional once you have the hydrogen and CO2 – that’s been done countless times globally – but taking the process through the whole end-to-end is a bit unique,” he said.

“What we’re trying to do is really uplift the value and upcycle the landfill waste into something of higher value so that we can actually start diverting away from landfill at a large scale.”

Further, there’s a “big opportunity internationally” too for Greenhill Energy which has a patent pending for its technology.

“We’re looking to leverage the technology internationally in due course, and we’re also looking at multiple facilities around Australia,” he said.

“There’s a really big opportunity internationally with what we’re talking about here. There’s 1.6 billion people in the world that don’t have electricity for example, and there’s a lot of waste that sits around the world and stockpiled in some of the countries that probably have very little net wealth.

“There’s a great opportunity here for them to be able to leverage what they do have to grow their own resilience and their own wealth in their own locality.”

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Re: News & Discussion: Electricity Infrastructure

#1613 Post by abc » Mon Apr 29, 2024 10:48 pm

Algernon wrote:
Fri Apr 26, 2024 9:32 pm
abc wrote:
Fri Apr 26, 2024 11:11 am
SBD wrote:
Thu Apr 25, 2024 11:30 pm


The point I saw was that high retail prices are because retailers have to build in a margin to cover "high price events" when the actual spot price jumps from an average of $90 to a spike as high as $10994. We've seen massive business collapses in other industries with variable-price inputs and fixed price outputs (eg builders, cafes). Energy retailers need to build in a margin to avoid going the same way.

The article gives an example of a cause for these high-price events in Queensland was that one of the large coal-fired generators is not reliable, and the price spiked each time it broke down.

It's not clear if coal is a driving feature here or if it could happen to anything. That power station is only just over 20 years old, so newer than most. I guess most coal (and nuclear) power stations drop a larger amount of generation in one swoop if they fail.
suddenly they're not reliable after 100 years... but wind turbines that only work when the wind blows a certain speed range are reliable

you can't make this up
Funny. You haven't mentioned nuclear in a while.

Because the topic was the thing you're really talking about when you're talking about nuclear. Coal.
do you have a point?

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Re: News & Discussion: Electricity Infrastructure

#1614 Post by abc » Mon Apr 29, 2024 10:49 pm

SBD wrote:
Sat Apr 27, 2024 12:44 am
abc wrote:
Fri Apr 26, 2024 11:11 am
SBD wrote:
Thu Apr 25, 2024 11:30 pm


The point I saw was that high retail prices are because retailers have to build in a margin to cover "high price events" when the actual spot price jumps from an average of $90 to a spike as high as $10994. We've seen massive business collapses in other industries with variable-price inputs and fixed price outputs (eg builders, cafes). Energy retailers need to build in a margin to avoid going the same way.

The article gives an example of a cause for these high-price events in Queensland was that one of the large coal-fired generators is not reliable, and the price spiked each time it broke down.

It's not clear if coal is a driving feature here or if it could happen to anything. That power station is only just over 20 years old, so newer than most. I guess most coal (and nuclear) power stations drop a larger amount of generation in one swoop if they fail.
suddenly they're not reliable after 100 years... but wind turbines that only work when the wind blows a certain speed range are reliable

you can't make this up
You didn't highlight the preceding two words "one of". Specifically Callide C which is only 20 years old - it's one of Australia's newest coal fired power stations, and yet according to the report behind the link in that article, Callide C has failed multiple times and is identified as one of the contributors to price spikes.
Tell me why you think the Chinese are investing in coal plants...

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Re: News & Discussion: Electricity Infrastructure

#1615 Post by bits » Tue Apr 30, 2024 4:48 am

Is China just building everything as fast as they can to satisfy demand?
In China for 2023, 74% of newly installed nameplate generation was wind or solar.
Year on year China keeps increasing the total percentage of renewable installations vs fossil fuels.
Just not nearly as fast as Australia has.

https://www.eia.gov/international/analysis/country/CHN
https://www.power-technology.com/news/c ... -capacity/

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Re: News & Discussion: Electricity Infrastructure

#1616 Post by rubberman » Tue Apr 30, 2024 10:20 am

abc wrote:
Mon Apr 29, 2024 10:49 pm
SBD wrote:
Sat Apr 27, 2024 12:44 am
abc wrote:
Fri Apr 26, 2024 11:11 am


suddenly they're not reliable after 100 years... but wind turbines that only work when the wind blows a certain speed range are reliable

you can't make this up
You didn't highlight the preceding two words "one of". Specifically Callide C which is only 20 years old - it's one of Australia's newest coal fired power stations, and yet according to the report behind the link in that article, Callide C has failed multiple times and is identified as one of the contributors to price spikes.
Tell me why you think the Chinese are investing in coal plants...
Many of these are actually not in accordance with government policy. So, in a word: Corruption. Not a surprise. But hardly an endorsement of coal.

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Re: News & Discussion: Electricity Infrastructure

#1617 Post by PD2/20 » Tue Apr 30, 2024 11:16 am

rubberman wrote:
Tue Apr 30, 2024 10:20 am
abc wrote:
Mon Apr 29, 2024 10:49 pm
SBD wrote:
Sat Apr 27, 2024 12:44 am

You didn't highlight the preceding two words "one of". Specifically Callide C which is only 20 years old - it's one of Australia's newest coal fired power stations, and yet according to the report behind the link in that article, Callide C has failed multiple times and is identified as one of the contributors to price spikes.
Tell me why you think the Chinese are investing in coal plants...
Many of these are actually not in accordance with government policy. So, in a word: Corruption. Not a surprise. But hardly an endorsement of coal.
What role do the 23 provinces have? Are electricity developments initiated by central government or at a province level or by other entities? Is any non-central initiative necessarily corruption?

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Re: News & Discussion: Electricity Infrastructure

#1618 Post by rubberman » Tue Apr 30, 2024 12:33 pm

PD2/20 wrote:
Tue Apr 30, 2024 11:16 am
rubberman wrote:
Tue Apr 30, 2024 10:20 am
abc wrote:
Mon Apr 29, 2024 10:49 pm


Tell me why you think the Chinese are investing in coal plants...
Many of these are actually not in accordance with government policy. So, in a word: Corruption. Not a surprise. But hardly an endorsement of coal.
What role do the 23 provinces have? Are electricity developments initiated by central government or at a province level or by other entities? Is any non-central initiative necessarily corruption?
It is corruption if it's in contravention of central government policy. Now, whether that's because a central government is turning a blind eye, or the province level is just hoping not to be noticed isn't clear.

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Algernon
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Re: News & Discussion: Electricity Infrastructure

#1619 Post by Algernon » Tue Apr 30, 2024 2:35 pm

This came accross my feed yesterday: re how China is tracking with renewable energy.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/ianpalmer/ ... -backflip/

As said above, coal is something that plugs a short term gap when the longer term play for renewables takes longer to roll out. Nuclear has a role, but can't fill that particular role of being a crack filler because it just takes too long to build one.

My main concerns are the USA and India. China is the biggest emitter, but they're turning that ship around. It may look slow, but it's a damned freaking huge ship.

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Re: News & Discussion: Electricity Infrastructure

#1620 Post by mattblack » Tue Apr 30, 2024 5:49 pm

And more news. Some serious momentum being seen in this sector with diversification of energy supply;

1414 Degrees secures rights to new University of Adelaide hydrogen tech

Listed energy storage firm 1414 Degrees has acquired exclusive rights to a new method for producing net zero hydrogen from natural gas developed by the University of Adelaide.

A method of producing hydrogen from natural gas invented by researchers at the University of Adelaide will be used exclusively by ASX-listed energy storage company 1414 Degrees.

The Tonsley-based company told shareholders that it would integrate the university’s invention with its own silicon storage technology on its “quest to decarbonise high-temperature industries”.

It follows 1414 Degree’s previously announced acquisition of rights to a University of Adelaide-developed dual-column fluid reactor – an integral component of the company’s methane pyrolysis hydrogen technology.

1414 Degrees plans to integrate its silicon brick thermal storage technology called SiBrick with the reactor design to allow for the use of intermittent renewable energy in the process.

These developments are fast turning 1414 Degrees into yet another South Australian hydrogen energy player, alongside the likes of Greenhill Energy which is developing a $400 million waste-to-hydrogen plant at Tailem Bend and a consortium of firms building the $600 million hydrogen production and storage facilities at Whyalla.

Speaking to InDaily, 1414 Degrees executive chairman Dr Kevin Moriarty said the company was awarded a $2.5 million grant to advance the SiPHyR technology for low-carbon hydrogen production developed in collaboration with the University of Adelaide, Woodside Energy, Vulcan Steel and the Royal Melbourne Institute of Technology.

SiPHyR (SiBrick integrated Pyrolytic Hydrogen Reactor) combines methane pyrolysis – a high-temperature process that transforms methane into hydrogen gas and solid carbon – with 1414 Degree’s proprietary silicon energy storage technologies.

1414 Degrees said the process stands out in the hydrogen production landscape by circumventing the technical and cost challenges of capturing carbon dioxide from hydrogen produced via gas reforming, while requiring less electricity generation and transmission infrastructure than hydrogen produced via water electrolysis using renewable power.

“In order to generate hydrogen from natural gas and biogas you need heat,” Dr Moriarty said.

“What we’re planning to use is renewable heat – in other words, we will use renewable electricity to generate the heat which drives the process. And through that process we can produce net-zero – or in fact negative-zero emissions.”

He said the news signified the company’s focus on hydrogen and how it can interact with the company’s silicon storage tech, which would, in turn, mean cheaper power for industrial-scale operations.

“Electricity is expensive and an increase in the amount of electricity means an expansion of the electricity supply lines,” he said.

“Cheap electricity is just not available for large industrial processes and even many small ones. So we were looking at this and saying what can we do with that gas supply?


“Our eventual aim with this is to have a reactor that we can put on a site which decarbonises their gas before they burn it and create emissions.”

Dr Moriarty added that hydrogen was becoming a hot industry in South Australia, but that because of the myriad ways to produce hydrogen there was room for many different players in the market.

“There’s different types of ways of making hydrogen that make sense in different situations,” he said.

“I don’t see an issue. It’s like the car market – there’s room for a lot of different products there.

“It’s the same with gas. If gas is going to be around for 100 years how can we deal with that problem?”

https://www.indaily.com.au/business/ene ... rogen-tech

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