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adelaide transport wrote: ↑

Tue May 22, 2018 9:24 pm

That is totally wrong. One of the key benefits of the O-Bahn is the ability to continue off-track at both Paradise and Tea Tree Plaza Interchanges.

We might have to look at double-articulated buses on some of the key peak routes?

[Shuz] wrote: ↑

Tue May 22, 2018 9:09 pm

Time to convert oBahn to rail.

Why? Is the oBahn track itself close to capacity?

If not, then additional buses would be much cheaper than demolishing the oBahn and building a rail line. In addition if patronage on the route picks up due to turning it into rail you will probably need additional buses anyway to feed commuters into the stations.

The O'Bahn system itself is not near capacity, it is the existing services on the O'Bahn that are becoming increasingly full at certain times, hence the need for increased buses, more articulated buses and/or more services.

Very poor response from the new Transport Minister to slip a generalist response regarding buses on the whole network, rather than accepting responsibility that further planning needs to be done to manage the ongoing passenger number increase on the O'Bahn.

adelaide transport wrote: ↑

Tue May 22, 2018 9:24 pm

That is totally wrong. One of the key benefits of the O-Bahn is the ability to continue off-track at both Paradise and Tea Tree Plaza Interchanges.

This will also eventually be its downfall. While not ay capacity yet, there are only so many buses that can use the track, only so many that can fit through the interchange stops and only so many that can fit in Grenfell street. And buses have very limited capacity in themselves. More vehicles, more drivers, more maintenance, more breakdowns. Double articulated buses, while ok on the track, will be of limited use off the track due to their added length and limited ability to turn. Now compare this to a 6 car train. Adelaide love of single seat journeys-(the major benefit of Obahn) is preventing proper use of the existing rail system, and leading to over reliance on buses, which are inefficient for large volume, long distance journeys.

claybro wrote: ↑

Wed May 23, 2018 10:10 am

adelaide transport wrote: ↑

Tue May 22, 2018 9:24 pm

That is totally wrong. One of the key benefits of the O-Bahn is the ability to continue off-track at both Paradise and Tea Tree Plaza Interchanges.

This will also eventually be its downfall. While not ay capacity yet, there are only so many buses that can use the track, only so many that can fit through the interchange stops and only so many that can fit in Grenfell street. And buses have very limited capacity in themselves. More vehicles, more drivers, more maintenance, more breakdowns. Double articulated buses, while ok on the track, will be of limited use off the track due to their added length and limited ability to turn. Now compare this to a 6 car train. Adelaide love of single seat journeys-(the major benefit of Obahn) is preventing proper use of the existing rail system, and leading to over reliance on buses, which are inefficient for large volume, long distance journeys.

How does the O-Bahn gradient compare with the gradient suitable for trains? Particularly "beyond Paradise"?

claybro wrote: ↑

Wed May 23, 2018 10:10 am

adelaide transport wrote: ↑

Tue May 22, 2018 9:24 pm

That is totally wrong. One of the key benefits of the O-Bahn is the ability to continue off-track at both Paradise and Tea Tree Plaza Interchanges.

This will also eventually be its downfall. While not ay capacity yet, there are only so many buses that can use the track, only so many that can fit through the interchange stops and only so many that can fit in Grenfell street. And buses have very limited capacity in themselves. More vehicles, more drivers, more maintenance, more breakdowns. Double articulated buses, while ok on the track, will be of limited use off the track due to their added length and limited ability to turn. Now compare this to a 6 car train. Adelaide love of single seat journeys-(the major benefit of Obahn) is preventing proper use of the existing rail system, and leading to over reliance on buses, which are inefficient for large volume, long distance journeys.

What is the theoretical capacity of the O-Bahn compared to the population it services?

Golden Grove Road should have bus lane in each direction between North East Road and The Grove Way then on The Grove Way between Golden Grove Road and The Golden Way.

Nort wrote: ↑

Wed May 23, 2018 10:55 am

claybro wrote: ↑

Wed May 23, 2018 10:10 am

adelaide transport wrote: ↑

Tue May 22, 2018 9:24 pm

That is totally wrong. One of the key benefits of the O-Bahn is the ability to continue off-track at both Paradise and Tea Tree Plaza Interchanges.

This will also eventually be its downfall. While not ay capacity yet, there are only so many buses that can use the track, only so many that can fit through the interchange stops and only so many that can fit in Grenfell street. And buses have very limited capacity in themselves. More vehicles, more drivers, more maintenance, more breakdowns. Double articulated buses, while ok on the track, will be of limited use off the track due to their added length and limited ability to turn. Now compare this to a 6 car train. Adelaide love of single seat journeys-(the major benefit of Obahn) is preventing proper use of the existing rail system, and leading to over reliance on buses, which are inefficient for large volume, long distance journeys.

What is the theoretical capacity of the O-Bahn compared to the population it services?

There are figures available, not sure the source, but this has been discussed at length on this forum. It is true, the track itself can cope with many more buses, but the Obahn can't be looked at as the track in isolation.. more and expanded routes accessing the track at various points will at some point clog the whole system. It will probably be ok for another 20 years at the current rate of growth, but it is not a long term solution, particularly if the whole track requires replacement in future due to the ageing concrete.

Eurostar wrote: ↑

Wed May 23, 2018 11:40 am

Golden Grove Road should have bus lane in each direction between North East Road and The Grove Way then on The Grove Way between Golden Grove Road and The Golden Way.

The government is currently doing a study on that.

claybro wrote: ↑

Wed May 23, 2018 2:23 pm

Nort wrote: ↑

Wed May 23, 2018 10:55 am

claybro wrote: ↑

Wed May 23, 2018 10:10 am

This will also eventually be its downfall. While not ay capacity yet, there are only so many buses that can use the track, only so many that can fit through the interchange stops and only so many that can fit in Grenfell street. And buses have very limited capacity in themselves. More vehicles, more drivers, more maintenance, more breakdowns. Double articulated buses, while ok on the track, will be of limited use off the track due to their added length and limited ability to turn. Now compare this to a 6 car train. Adelaide love of single seat journeys-(the major benefit of Obahn) is preventing proper use of the existing rail system, and leading to over reliance on buses, which are inefficient for large volume, long distance journeys.

What is the theoretical capacity of the O-Bahn compared to the population it services?

There are figures available, not sure the source, but this has been discussed at length on this forum. It is true, the track itself can cope with many more buses, but the Obahn can't be looked at as the track in isolation.. more and expanded routes accessing the track at various points will at some point clog the whole system. It will probably be ok for another 20 years at the current rate of growth, but it is not a long term solution, particularly if the whole track requires replacement in future due to the ageing concrete.

Everything has a capacity limit eventually. There are plenty of things in South Australia that could reach capacity before 20 years. As you said, the system is more than just the track, so capacity improvements or diversions in a number of places across the system might extend the core congestion date. For example:

• More employment at Modbury might reduce the demand.
• Changes to trading hours might spread the "peak" wider.
• Advances in vehicle control might reduce the inter-bus spacing
• Improved timetabling might reduce the dwell time at stops
• Banning non-buses from Grenfell Street might improve capacity (or a subterranean bus station like in Brisbane)
• Growth rates on that side of town might change
• Technology and lifestyle changes - Transport as a service, autonomous cars/buses, improved telepresence, ...

If an expensive renewal/rebuild of a substantial portion of the track is required due to end-of-life, then that would be a time to review the technology choice. Do you know the projected life of the present concrete?

SBD wrote: ↑

Wed May 23, 2018 4:22 pm

If an expensive renewal/rebuild of a substantial portion of the track is required due to end-of-life, then that would be a time to review the technology choice. Do you know the projected life of the present concrete?

I believe the track is already near the end of its designed lifespan. A major revamp will be required sooner rather than later. The existing track is already very bumpy in places and it is only a matter of time before this becomes a safety, rather than just a ride comfort issue.
The decision of converting the whole lot to rail, or rebuilding the existing track bit by bit might be closer than we think. Conversion to heavy rail however would be astronomically expensive and probably beyond the state in any case, give the competing priorities ie. electrification in general.

And then you would be testing if there is any appetite for train services.
There is proven demand for the bus services and proven lack of demand for trains in Adelaide.

Do not fix what is not broken.

bits wrote: ↑

Wed May 23, 2018 7:51 pm

And then you would be testing if there is any appetite for train services.
There is proven demand for the bus services and proven lack of demand for trains in Adelaide.

Do not fix what is not broken.

I don't think Obahn demand is due to the fact that it is a bus. It's popularity stems from it's convenience and high speed (with limited stops) from TTP.

I think if Obahn was a train with the same 3 stops as the Obahn, you would see similar patronage.

Park/ride facilities and well-planned connecting buses at widely-spaced stations (to enable high-speed running) is a public transport model which works well in low-density cities.

Just look at the Joondalup and Mandurah rail lines in Perth, which both have patronage exceeding 50,000 commuters each day. Train stations are between 3-5km apart, and the trains travel in excess of 100km/h. Extensive park & ride facilities and bus connections at each station.

It could revolutionise our existing Adelaide train services if the government was bold enough to slash the number of train stations by two-thirds, and build nice, modern stations for the ones we want to keep with ample car parking. It works in Perth and on the Obahn. Why not for our rail lines?

ml69 wrote: ↑

Wed May 23, 2018 10:12 pm

It could revolutionise our existing Adelaide train services if the government was bold enough to slash the number of train stations by two-thirds, and build nice, modern stations for the ones we want to keep with ample car parking.

And thus encourage all but a small handful of PT patrons to use a car for a portion of their trip...

Would it be viable to have the O-Barn extend down Port Rd, Anza Highway and other main roads around Adelaide? The two I mention are quite wide and could easily accommodate O-Bahn lanes down their centre. They would take buses off the road and provide a fast thorough fair

You could then potentially cancel the Grange line and have the O-Bahn continue through to West Lakes and then loop up again on Military Rd and connect with the O-Bahn that follows Port Road right down to Port Road?

I have no real idea about the economics of extending an O-Bahn system over the tram system but if patronage and demand for busses are higher then why don't we look at O-Bahn extensions as an option? I definitely fee in other areas trams would be much more suitable but we do have a fair few wide main roads.