~Outer Harbour-Sellicks Beach rail link

[cleverick]

I would prefer heavy all the way, but if Adelaide ever gets around to electrifying its trains, depending on convenience and cost, the route could be a mixture of road (tram) and right-of-way (train).
The idea is for a continuous rail link from Outer Harbour along the coast (ie, no station more than some figure- eg. 400m from the water) to Sellicks Beach. At present this is a commuter route, but has potential as tourist 'cruise' train- scenic and historic.
Outer Harbour would be a major interchange: tourist airport express, a new route to Gawler, as well as local bus/tram services.
Grange would be a minor interchange- only two routes meet, although it would become the centre of local bus services.
Glenelg would be a major interchange: instead of the present tram stop, an actual train station built off Jetty Road. The tram would then go in forwards and back out again to continue toward Mosley Squ terminus. The station would be an interchange for the tourist express from the airport (See other threads or my blog, http://www.cleverail.blogspot.com), the Glenelg tram and the OH-SB link.
Somewhere like Hallett Cove (roughly between Bay and Noarlunga) would become a minor interchange for buses and so forth.
Noarlunga Centre would become an interchange- OH-SB line, local buses, Victor Harbor Line, Cape Jervis ferry connector line...
and Sellicks Beach would be the terminus of that coastal spine.

This would serve tourists, commuters, summer revellers, holiday makers and any one else you can think of.

Thoughts?

[Norman]

I'm sorry, but I can't agree here

Cross suburban public transport does not work in Adelaide. The fact the 100 bus is underused is bad enough as it is, especially on weekends. And there is nothing at outer harbor. Yes, NOTHING. There is no point making it a major interchange.

The amount of property aquisition would run into billions, especially if you're cutting through Glenelg. Tunnel is a no-go as well as the water level is too high to allow anything above ground.

And just with the Glenelg Express, wouldn't that kill the Glenelg tram?

The cost-benefit ratio of this coastline train is redicolously low, hop onto a 600 bus one day, from Henley Square to Blackwood. Most of the travel happens to be between Glenelg and Marion, Marion and Flinders and Marion and Blackwood. I have travelled most bus, train and tram routes in Adelaide several times to get a clear picture where people do go and want to go. If anything is a priority, fix the North-South line up first. Gawler to Noarlunga/Aldings/Sellicks Beach that is.

[cleverick]

All fair points.
I understand the cost will be ridiculous.
But if you read my proposal http://www.sensational-adelaide.com/for ... a&start=90 you will notice that an airport-Bay express will not kill the tram. For one, it's a different starting point with a different route and a different target audience. It would form part of a commuter route into the city- an option for some people packed like sardines on the tram, for example.
Public transport is underutilised because it doesn't go where people want to when they want to. The roads, you will observe, are full to bursting all over the city. It's not a matter of passenger miles, it's a matter of making it convenient, quick, and comfortable. Trains ought to be all these things. Only TransAdelaide is incompetent.
There is nothing at Outer Harbour- yet. You forget the time frame of these projects. I'm talking decades, potentially, before it is finished in its entirety. By then the character of Port Adelaide (rather than Outer Harbour, make this the interchange, even while OH remains terminus for that train route) will be significantly more residential.

But the idea of starting with the Noarlunga-Gawler (via Sellicks Beach!) line is a good one.

[Howie]

cleverick.. i understand you're new but alot of these new threads you have created could probably go into an existing thread. e.g. road and rail thread etc. It makes the forum harder to manage with so many threads going on at the same time - we like to consolidate threads wherever possible.

[Norman]

But if you read my proposal http://www.sensational-adelaide.com/for ... a&start=90 you will notice that an airport-Bay express will not kill the tram. For one, it's a different starting point with a different route and a different target audience. It would form part of a commuter route into the city- an option for some people packed like sardines on the tram, for example.

Well, I would suggest making full use of the corridors we already have. Do remember that not all users of the tram go to Glenelg only.

[cleverick]

Oh, the line would run a commuter train as well. The airport would become a hub with commuter lines to the Port, the Bay and the City, but it would run a tourist express as well. (A special train with info and TV and so on and so forth.)

Don't think it will only be an express.

[Norman]

I meant people living on stops like Glengowrie, Marion Road, Plympton Park, etc. They represent the bulk of users and will be bypassed by this new train anyway.

As I said before, make use of the corridors you already have.

[Omicron]

I meant people living on stops like Glengowrie, Marion Road, Plympton Park, etc. They represent the bulk of users and will be bypassed by this new train anyway.

As I said before, make use of the corridors you already have.

Me! Me!

[cleverick]

Norman, why do you assume that people who don't currently have a rail connection to town will not use it if they get one? People who live in Glengowrie will still have the Glenelg tram, and can still commute using that. But people who live in Richmond will also have a train, and people who live in West Beach will be able to catch a train to the Bay or the City, depending on where they work, what they want to do and who they are doing it with.
I am not taking anything away from you, I am supplying others with the same standard as you have. (In fact better, because as a railway it will run completely independent from the road system and make to to North Tce faster than you.)

[Norman]

Norman, why do you assume that people who don't currently have a rail connection to town will not use it if they get one? People who live in Glengowrie will still have the Glenelg tram, and can still commute using that. But people who live in Richmond will also have a train, and people who live in West Beach will be able to catch a train to the Bay or the City, depending on where they work, what they want to do and who they are doing it with.
I am not taking anything away from you, I am supplying others with the same standard as you have. (In fact better, because as a railway it will run completely independent from the road system and make to to North Tce faster than you.)

But the fact is, that area is too sparesely populated to make a train efficient. If anything, a tram would do the job, but not heavy rail.

Check out West Beach. Density is as low as anything there.

Trains are meant to serve urban sprawl, like Elizabeth, Noarlunga and Golden Grove, while inner suburbs should use buses and trams.

[monotonehell]

Trains are meant to serve urban sprawl, like Elizabeth, Noarlunga and Golden Grove, while inner suburbs should use buses and trams.

BZZT quite the opposite. Trains are only useful for high density concentrated areas or to serve distant points where feeder services bring in passengers from sprawl. Buses are the best solution for sprawl as they can adapt to changing usage patterns. While trams are good to encourage or service planned Transit Orientated Developments (ToD) along high density corridors.

But I think, reading between the lines this is what you meant.

[cleverick]

I think that trains should replace large numbers of cars (or planes) along high-density routes. Adelaide-Airport, Sydney-Melbourne, that kind of thing.
Trams are useful for built-up areas to facilitate not so much commuting but shopping and errand-running. Jetty Road, the City, Unley Rd, Henley Beach Rd all spring to mind.
Buses are good for places where trains can't go or haven't been built yet. I don't like buses, I'm unashamed to say I would love to live in a bus-free city. However it is undeniable they have their... not advantages so much as their place in any public transport system.
I hope that when they electrify the track they also bring in a standard guage. In Europe I can travel from Budapest to Karlsruhe (13 hours) in one carriage. In London, the train from the airport becomes the tram in the inner-suburbs and then a subway in the centre of the city. I don't understand why our guages were not made compatible years ago.

So, to bring us back to the topic at hand, a rail link from Outer Harbour to Sellicks Beach would be a good addition to Adelaide's PT, because traffic along Tapleys Hill/Brighton/Ocean/Lonsdale/Dyson is quite a lot and increasing, similarly the southern expressway. It would not need to be widened if the rail corridor were built. That it connects with Noarlunga, Glenelg and Grange makes it all the more useful.

[Norman]

I'm getting out of this argument, but my pojt still stands. There is a reason the 340/345 bus (Port Adelaide to Marino via Glenelg & Marion) was axed, and there is a reason the 600 runs at Henley Beach from Marion every hour only.

The hundreds of billions spent to build this line do not equare any money this rail link may reimburse into the state's coffers.

[monotonehell]

I'm getting out of this argument, but my pojt still stands. There is a reason the 340/345 bus (Port Adelaide to Marino via Glenelg & Marion) was axed, and there is a reason the 600 runs at Henley Beach from Marion every hour only.

The hundreds of billions spent to build this line do not equare any money this rail link may reimburse into the state's coffers.

What Norman says is true. While the roads Cleverdick mentions are indeed busy, the traffic on them does not on the whole traverse the entire route. Most motorists use a short section and then turn east toward other major roads. The only cross metro routes that seem to thrive are ones that link centre to centre, like Marion to TTP. And on even those passengers tend to only stay on for a section of the journey, because it goes via Adelaide.

[cleverick]

The traffic doesn't traverse the whole route- which is why the intersections with Grange, Glenelg and Noarlunga will become hubs. People can get off and head east towards the city.
I believe that what with the Kyoto agreement and generally feeling good about the environment, people can be convinced to take PT as long as it's convenient and frequent. You could have a rural hills-bus like service south of Sellicks all the way to Cape Jervis (two in the morning, two at night) and have it connect with the ferry down there as well. People currently catch a bus or drive to Noarlunga to catch a train- so just build the train to them. If the metro boundary keeps moving south, it'll soon be in the middle of the urbanity again.
I think it's sustainable.