Broad questions about Adelaide's CBD

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[Shuz]
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Re: Broad questions about Adelaide's CBD

#16 Post by [Shuz] » Tue Jul 30, 2013 2:53 pm

Can't find an appropriate thread for this; so I'll just chuck it in here and leave the powers be - conversation continued from Infrastructure subforum regarding proposed subway.
Sorry I should be a bit clearer. I'm aware that some investigation has already been undertaken into the possibility of a subway - purely route alignments at this stage and working out where the tunnel portals would go - i.e one of the options is basically where the new UoA building on North Terrace would go as revealed by InDaily today.

It seems very likely that in 2018 both major parties (Liberals have already indicated they will) will go to the election with the promise of undertaking a serious feasibility study and/or constructing a subway, and then in that first term (2018-2022) that the idea of a subway would undergo the more complex stuff, feasibility studies, soil testing, design, drawings, etc. Construction probably wouldn't happen until 2021-2014 and even then, it wouldn't open until three or so years after that. Those would be optimistic guesses. But I definetly think Adelaide will have an underground subway by 2030.

On a seperate note of personal opinion, as South Australia is basically in a stall / recession at the moment, I believe it's imperative that the fiscal stimulus continue towards infrastructure spending, and hope that the Weatherill Labor Government maintains the momentum, upon completion of the Southern Expressway duplication, South Road Superway, Adelaide Oval, etc. and bring the concept forward to this election term (2014-2018). I'm aware we have a massive $1.3b deficit and a $12b debt and rising, which isn't good, but so long as any extra debt is invested in productivity measures which generates a positive economic return to the State, I think we should take out more borrowings to fund such things like the proposed subway - this bit is probably best placed for the Pub, so if a spin-off conversation ensues... I'll copy-pasta this into the Pub thread, and take it from there.
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Re: Broad questions about Adelaide's CBD

#17 Post by Phantom » Tue Jul 30, 2013 5:22 pm

I'm cool with Shuz's derailment (pun intended). I just intended on having this thread open to general discussion about the CBD (as you can guess with the title)

The idea of an underground system in Adelaide has had my attention since they announced the redevelopment of the Adelaide Convention Centre, to abut the Morphett St bridge. The view that you get now on a train during the day time, heading into the city really does give off what it could be like in Adelaide.

If this were actually be implemented, would the railway station stay where it is at the moment, or would it find a new home perhaps west of Morphett St, to compliment the gradual shifting of the CBD to that side of the suburb of Adelaide?
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Re: Broad questions about Adelaide's CBD

#18 Post by [Shuz] » Tue Jul 30, 2013 5:33 pm

Id imagine ARS would be retained as is and the new underground platforms slot underneath the existing station footprint. To do this you would would need to rework and downsize the existing station concourse (beyond the ticket gates) not the actual heritage concourse -and slot in a couple of elevators down to the underground platforms in front of platforms 1-4 with the new platforms about 20-30m below. I cant see any other way of doing it really.
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Re: Broad questions about Adelaide's CBD

#19 Post by Phantom » Tue Jul 30, 2013 5:49 pm

I'd love to see it, but honestly, is Adelaide really in the position to have a city-wide underground loop, or is that something that could just be fixed with tramlines? Don't get me wrong. I think it would look awesome, but would it really be viable? Adelaide kinda stops south of Grote and Wakefield and east of Pulteney. I think something of this magnitude would be better suited if it could use a larger space. Running an underground network to North Adelaide and O'Connell St would be very expensive to get it going around the river, surely?

I'm sure Adelaide could use it in maybe 50 years' time, and designing these things for the future is 90% a very smart investment, but I feel that this is one of those other 10%. Does the government have the finances to cover the maintenance of this until it becomes financially self-reliant?
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Re: Broad questions about Adelaide's CBD

#20 Post by Nathan » Tue Jul 30, 2013 5:51 pm

[Shuz] wrote:Id imagine ARS would be retained as is and the new underground platforms slot underneath the existing station footprint. To do this you would would need to rework and downsize the existing station concourse (beyond the ticket gates) not the actual heritage concourse -and slot in a couple of elevators down to the underground platforms in front of platforms 1-4 with the new platforms about 20-30m below. I cant see any other way of doing it really.
That's exactly how I'd see it done too. That way you could also have non-electic trains (Belair, possible interstate trains) terminating on top platforms, and have easy transfer to electrified lines continuing on beneath.

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Re: Broad questions about Adelaide's CBD

#21 Post by Aidan » Tue Jul 30, 2013 6:43 pm

Nathan wrote:
[Shuz] wrote:Id imagine ARS would be retained as is and the new underground platforms slot underneath the existing station footprint. To do this you would would need to rework and downsize the existing station concourse (beyond the ticket gates) not the actual heritage concourse -and slot in a couple of elevators down to the underground platforms in front of platforms 1-4 with the new platforms about 20-30m below. I cant see any other way of doing it really.
That's exactly how I'd see it done too. That way you could also have non-electic trains (Belair, possible interstate trains) terminating on top platforms, and have easy transfer to electrified lines continuing on beneath.
Why do you assume that diesel trains will still be running on the Belair line by the time the underground section opens? As for interstate trains, they're much too long to fit into Adelaide Station. A better solution would be for the subway to directly serve Keswick Terminal.

There's really two options: have the underground station under North Terrace, or have it under Adelaide Station. I don't know how much the footings of ASER complicate the latter, but I have noticed its columns are not aligned with those of the main concourse.
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Re: Broad questions about Adelaide's CBD

#22 Post by claybro » Tue Jul 30, 2013 8:04 pm

Aidan wrote: Why do you assume that diesel trains will still be running on the Belair line by the time the underground section opens? As for interstate trains, they're much too long to fit into Adelaide Station. A better solution would be for the subway to directly serve Keswick Terminal.

There's really two options: have the underground station under North Terrace, or have it under Adelaide Station. I don't know how much the footings of ASER complicate the latter, but I have noticed its columns are not aligned with those of the main concourse.
This reason is often given as to why we cant have interstate trains back into the CBD. But I am not so sure.
Why is the current length of platforms as issue? Surely there is no restriction to lengthening at least 1 platform westward.
If maintenance is an issue, then surely the train could be shunted to Keswick or Dry Creek once the passengers are taken care of?
There are already regional stations that cater for interstate trains which are much smaller than the Adelaide Station.
If the fact it is a terminating station and not a through station is an issue, I look at Termini Station in Rome, which all international trains into Rome terminate and reverse direction. It also has a metro station underneath, complete with Roman ruins on display unearthed during excavations for the underground station.
As for an underground station on North Terrace, I agree it should be located under, or adjacent to the existing station, as the whole riverbank/AO development is designed around this access via the footbridge.

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Re: Broad questions about Adelaide's CBD

#23 Post by Nathan » Tue Jul 30, 2013 8:24 pm

Aidan wrote:Why do you assume that diesel trains will still be running on the Belair line by the time the underground section opens? As for interstate trains, they're much too long to fit into Adelaide Station. A better solution would be for the subway to directly serve Keswick Terminal.
Hasn't it been stated that electrification of the Belair line is not on the cards, due to the extra difficulty it presents?

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Re: Broad questions about Adelaide's CBD

#24 Post by [Shuz] » Tue Jul 30, 2013 10:52 pm

What extra difficulty?
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Re: Broad questions about Adelaide's CBD

#25 Post by Nathan » Tue Jul 30, 2013 11:05 pm

[Shuz] wrote:What extra difficulty?
"Electrification of the Belair line is not proposed at this time, as this requires further engineering and operational analysis, due to two tunnels and the close proximity of the interstate (freight) rail line. The hills freight line was subject of a $3 million study by the Federal Government and a decision about not electrifying the Belair line was made."

from the DPTI website: http://www.infrastructure.sa.gov.au/com ... cts/belair

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Re: Broad questions about Adelaide's CBD

#26 Post by Phantom » Fri Aug 02, 2013 3:59 pm

Now that's been cleared up, I wanted to make reference to a large black book that I found myself looking through yesterday, but the name currently eludes me. It was in the window of the Angus and Robertson on the basement floor of the Myer Centre. The book contained street views of all of the streets of Adelaide in the order from north to south and also seemed to list various buildings that had been on those streets in the past and their locations.

I was just wondering if anyone actually had this, and if it were any good? I only very briefly flicked through the pages of it on my way past, otherwise I would've stood there for hours reading it, undoubtedly pissing off the bookshop staff. :P
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Re: Broad questions about Adelaide's CBD

#27 Post by Ben » Fri Aug 02, 2013 4:25 pm

Phantom wrote:Now that's been cleared up, I wanted to make reference to a large black book that I found myself looking through yesterday, but the name currently eludes me. It was in the window of the Angus and Robertson on the basement floor of the Myer Centre. The book contained street views of all of the streets of Adelaide in the order from north to south and also seemed to list various buildings that had been on those streets in the past and their locations.

I was just wondering if anyone actually had this, and if it were any good? I only very briefly flicked through the pages of it on my way past, otherwise I would've stood there for hours reading it, undoubtedly pissing off the bookshop staff. :P
Yes I have this its amazing love looking at all the pics :)

It has alot of then and now pics.

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