[VIS] New inner-city stadium

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mattwinter
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[VIS] Re: New inner-city stadium

Post by mattwinter »

Bob wrote:
Wed Nov 18, 2020 10:46 am
SRW wrote:
Wed Nov 18, 2020 10:39 am
I think you could argue the Entertainment Centre has as good or better public transport connections than Adelaide Oval -- it's physically closer to both the tramline and railway as well as key bus routes.
I am not sure if your comment is sarcasm or if you are serious? If serious, what are you smoking?

Besides, you want interstate and international tourists to be attending events in the best part of your city – not send them out to a wasteland.
Hindmarsh is literally only a couple of kilometres out of town... close to train and tram stops, close to the new major freeway that's being planned through our city. Close to the airport, in a nice area of town with things like Queen Street and Bowden nearby. Good parking available.

In any other city in the world we'd talk about that as an ideal location. Having Adelaide Oval in the city is nice but there's a lot more to Adelaide than the CBD. The whole idea that our sporting venues need to be right next to each other makes no sense really... Just because it's like that in Melbourne?

Hindmarsh upgrade seems totally appropriate to me. I'm a soccer fan and I like going to Reds games, but the A-league is in serious trouble at the moment and apart from Adelaide United, and a few concerts Hindmarsh doesn't get a lot of use. Some might talk about the potential for "world cup" games but we don't build stadiums for hypothetical events that we may well never see come to our shores.

It makes sense to do something now because of the Womens World Cup, and bringing Hindmarsh up to standard and a slight capacity increase sounds perfect. Hope they can one day cover the whole Northern End and particularly the north West Corner to do something about the harsh afternoon sun. Mind you with the A-league talking about a switch to winter it's rain cover that will make a bigger difference, and this upgrade should provide a fair bit more of that.
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[VIS] Re: New inner-city stadium

Post by rev »

mattwinter wrote:
Wed Nov 18, 2020 11:15 am
Bob wrote:
Wed Nov 18, 2020 10:46 am
SRW wrote:
Wed Nov 18, 2020 10:39 am
I think you could argue the Entertainment Centre has as good or better public transport connections than Adelaide Oval -- it's physically closer to both the tramline and railway as well as key bus routes.
I am not sure if your comment is sarcasm or if you are serious? If serious, what are you smoking?

Besides, you want interstate and international tourists to be attending events in the best part of your city – not send them out to a wasteland.
Hindmarsh is literally only a couple of kilometres out of town... close to train and tram stops, close to the new major freeway that's being planned through our city. Close to the airport, in a nice area of town with things like Queen Street and Bowden nearby. Good parking available.
Go for a walk on a hot summer evening to the nearest train stations. See how convenient it is. The tram stop isn't that much closer. Both are in reality a little out of the way. They aren't built to service Coopers stadium.
In any other city in the world we'd talk about that as an ideal location. Having Adelaide Oval in the city is nice but there's a lot more to Adelaide than the CBD. The whole idea that our sporting venues need to be right next to each other makes no sense really... Just because it's like that in Melbourne?
In what city, where? Europe? Most major European cities, and even smaller European cities, have subways/metros, with lines built to service major sporting venues in many of those cities. Here in Adelaide we wouldn't dare dream of having such systems in place, because they would cost too much.

It makes perfect sense to have major stadiums located in the same precinct, and consolidating as many of the major codes as possible into fewer venues. It reduces costs for those clubs and their respective codes. It also reduces operating cost pressure for the stadiums, especially if they are all under one central governing body such as the SMA. More tenants, more revenue, less cost pressure burden.
Hindmarsh upgrade seems totally appropriate to me. I'm a soccer fan and I like going to Reds games, but the A-league is in serious trouble at the moment and apart from Adelaide United, and a few concerts Hindmarsh doesn't get a lot of use. Some might talk about the potential for "world cup" games but we don't build stadiums for hypothetical events that we may well never see come to our shores.
Hypothetical events? You're a soccer fan who apparently doesn't know the 2023 FIFA Womens World Cup is going to be hosted by Australia & NZ?

Yeh, I've heard lots of these AUFC fans who don't want to move from Hindmarsh, because "they" are happy there.
But then those same fans will bitch and moan that there's no investment in their code, that it doesn't grow. But they'll resist change that will lead to growth. :lol:

Mind you, plenty of countries and cities around the world build new stadiums or do major upgrades of existing stadiums for these large sporting events.

Most of these fans had no interest in the a national league prior to the A League.
The whole thing was revamped and relaunched, and more people became interested. Out with the old in with the new.
Build better venues, with better transport access, follow the same concept as Adelaide Ovals redevelopment for AFL, where people are drawn to it not just for the match but because there's a range of things to do in the city a shop hop over the torrens before and after a match. And the game will grow. Bigger sponsors will come in, bigger tv rights deals will be made, and more money will be flowing to clubs, who will be able to bring in bigger name players.

But by the sounds of things, plenty of A League fans are content with being a second rate competition with minimal crowds and interest.
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[VIS] Re: New inner-city stadium

Post by Llessur2002 »

mattwinter wrote:
Wed Nov 18, 2020 11:15 am
Hindmarsh is literally only a couple of kilometres out of town... close to train and tram stops, close to the new major freeway that's being planned through our city. Close to the airport, in a nice area of town with things like Queen Street and Bowden nearby. Good parking available.
It's also worth noting that the area is within walking distance of three train lines - the Gawler line via North Adelaide station and the Outer Harbor and Grange lines via Bowden - the latter having one of the highest frequencies of stopping trains of any station on our network (4 per hour). Together with the tram line, the fact that the ring road passes right by and the presence of the NS motorway surely makes this spot pretty unique for any non-CBD location in SA.
rev wrote:
Wed Nov 18, 2020 11:42 am
Go for a walk on a hot summer evening to the nearest train stations. See how convenient it is. The tram stop isn't that much closer. Both are in reality a little out of the way. They aren't built to service Coopers stadium.
So walking 500m to a tram stop or 600m to a railway station is not possible on a hot summer evening, yet sitting for two hours in an outdoor stadium is? It'll be almost twice as far to walk from ARS to the University Oval ground that you've suggested...
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[VIS] Re: New inner-city stadium

Post by SRW »

Bob wrote:
Wed Nov 18, 2020 10:46 am
SRW wrote:
Wed Nov 18, 2020 10:39 am
I think you could argue the Entertainment Centre has as good or better public transport connections than Adelaide Oval -- it's physically closer to both the tramline and railway as well as key bus routes.
I am not sure if your comment is sarcasm or if you are serious? If serious, what are you smoking?

Besides, you want interstate and international tourists to be attending events in the best part of your city – not send them out to a wasteland.
It's an objective observation, mate. I have no particular barrow to push in terms of location, I'm just suggesting lack of transport is not an argument against this one. Nor is your subjective characterisation of the area as a wasteland. Given we're likely looking at a medium not short term timeline, that characterisation will be even less accurate as the area continues to develop.

And to be clear, I was talking to the idea of a redevelopment on the site of the Entertainment Centre, not Hindmarsh Stadium
Last edited by SRW on Wed Nov 18, 2020 12:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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rev
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[VIS] Re: New inner-city stadium

Post by rev »

Not that I mentioned distances, but it's actually about 600m to the tram stop and nearly 900m to the train stop at Bowden and 1.3km to the North Adelaide station.

None of that changes the mentioned fact that the stadium is out of the way of these tram and train stations.
For Adelaide Oval they built a footbridge for you to walk right out the gate and right through the doors into a train station.
They have buses which stop virtually outside Adelaide Oval, and eventually the tram will continue right past it as well and logically there will be a tram stop right outside Adelaide Oval.

The NSM passes right by it. Indeed, it PASSES IT. There are no on/off ramps that make access to Coopers Stadium an easy feat. Even when the T2D is done, there wont be any on/off ramps at Hindmarsh. They didn't put in on/off ramps at a major road like Port Road, do you honestly think they're going to include them for say Adam Street?
The ring road? That highly congested poorly designed excuse for a ring route? That's not a benefit, that's a detriment.


I didn't say that sitting in the sun at Coopers is fine. It's a shit venue of a piss poor standard and should be replaced by a new purpose built arena east of Adelaide Oval.

The location I suggest is about 650m from ARS, if they build a second foot bridge. About 660 without a footbridge.
It would be about 150m from King William Street and all the buses and future tram stop.
So basically, it would be the same deal with Adelaide Oval.

The other major problem is room for expansion. It is a highly limited location at Hindmarsh.
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[VIS] Re: New inner-city stadium

Post by Ho Really »

There are some people on this forum that like second rate. They aren’t interested in aiming for the best and looking into the future.

Soccer (football) is a world game and FIFA is the governing body if and I say IF we want the best then we need to go by those rules. Forget what the FFA does or doesn’t do. Only a 40,000 seat fully covered stadium will do. Any half-arsed solution now or in the future will not cut it.

The argument that 40,000 seats is too much and won’t be filled regularly is hollow. Special events (soccer finals and other sports, etc.,) and concerts can do this. The stadium will have a retractable roof. Like I said aim for the best no half-arsed patch-up jobs. Built once and you got it 50 years at least.

Location-wise the University Oval is perfect. Central in a park setting and close to the CBD with public transport (like Adelaide Oval on footy days) with also the possibility of a tram extension through North Adelaide and who knows even underground rail into the CBD in future servicing both AO and this stadium.

Several other questions have been answered by rev regarding Hindmarsh Stadium, transport, etc. The Entertainment Centre should remain as is. Too much has already been invested there and would be a good partner to a redeveloped Memorial Drive.

Cheers
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[VIS] Re: New inner-city stadium

Post by Llessur2002 »

rev wrote:
Wed Nov 18, 2020 12:21 pm
The location I suggest is about 650m from ARS, if they build a second foot bridge. About 660 without a footbridge.
How did you come to that distance just out of interest? I can't find a route from ARS under 830m, with a route involving a new footbridge being nearer 1km. I'm not trying to be pedantic and I accept that Bowden station is a little further from the Hindmarsh turnstyles than I previously estimated but as part of the argument against retaining Hindmarsh was the distance from PT it's still worth discussing...

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[VIS] Re: New inner-city stadium

Post by rev »

Llessur2002 wrote:
Wed Nov 18, 2020 12:47 pm
rev wrote:
Wed Nov 18, 2020 12:21 pm
The location I suggest is about 650m from ARS, if they build a second foot bridge. About 660 without a footbridge.
How did you come to that distance just out of interest? I can't find a route from ARS under 830m, with a route involving a new footbridge being nearer 1km. I'm not trying to be pedantic and I accept that Bowden station is a little further from the Hindmarsh turnstyles than I previously estimated but as part of the argument against retaining Hindmarsh was the distance from PT it's still worth discussing...

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Out the northern end where the new casino expansion is, between the festival centre buildings, across Elder park on the pathway onto King William, across the road, right onto Victoria Drive, and between those boat houses/buildings a theoretical foot bridge would take you across to a new stadium. Most people wouldn't walk on the foot path, they'd cut across the gardens in front of the Torrens Parade ground, so shave off 50 or so meters.

Or, across the King William st bridge, and follow the path heading north east towards the university oval/potential new stadium site.

Btw, the area I suggest includes removing the cross of sacrifice, a short part of sir edwin smith drive and that area of war memorial drive. The stadium in my idea would be closer to King William. The larger oval at Park 12 would move slightly south east over the smaller over, it could fit there and be almost right on the boundary of the road/footpath area. Or those users could move to the southern parklands, and the surrounding area including "Peace Park" could be beautified and brought up to standard.
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[VIS] Re: New inner-city stadium

Post by SBD »

The park east of King William Road is definitely a possibility.

Another possibility would be the large block of private land that is potentially too contaminated for housing, and is expected to be vacated next year on Port Road, south of the Torrens. The West End Brewery also has a tram stop out the front, not too far from Bowden station and a bit further from North Adelaide. 2.5km from Adelaide station.

Perhaps a major supermarket or convenience store operator might look to diversify and build a world-class sporting stadium with minimum government/public contributions.
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[VIS] Re: New inner-city stadium

Post by mattwinter »

rev wrote:
Wed Nov 18, 2020 11:42 am
Go for a walk on a hot summer evening to the nearest train stations. See how convenient it is. The tram stop isn't that much closer. Both are in reality a little out of the way. They aren't built to service Coopers stadium.
Mate, I've probably done that walk 100 times attending Reds games over the past few years. It's perfectly fine.
In what city, where? Europe? Most major European cities, and even smaller European cities, have subways/metros, with lines built to service major sporting venues in many of those cities. Here in Adelaide we wouldn't dare dream of having such systems in place, because they would cost too much.
I've been to plenty of football, premier league games, in Europe and yep there is a nice mass transit system to get you there but a lot of the time the walk is still 10 minutes to the stadium. Went to the Stade de France this time last year... nice train station nearby, 15 minute walk to get into the stadium. Perfectly fine.

We can have a conversation about whether Adelaide should build a metro system if you like, I'd love to see some long term plans being thought about, but we're trying to talk real world here not fantasy dream land.
It makes perfect sense to have major stadiums located in the same precinct, and consolidating as many of the major codes as possible into fewer venues. It reduces costs for those clubs and their respective codes. It also reduces operating cost pressure for the stadiums, especially if they are all under one central governing body such as the SMA. More tenants, more revenue, less cost pressure burden.
So... which are the codes you'd like to consolidate? We only have two AFL teams and a soccer team. Let's not pretend we live in London. When we get a couple of professional rugby teams get back to me.
Hypothetical events? You're a soccer fan who apparently doesn't know the 2023 FIFA Womens World Cup is going to be hosted by Australia & NZ?

Yeh, I've heard lots of these AUFC fans who don't want to move from Hindmarsh, because "they" are happy there.
But then those same fans will bitch and moan that there's no investment in their code, that it doesn't grow. But they'll resist change that will lead to growth. :lol:

Mind you, plenty of countries and cities around the world build new stadiums or do major upgrades of existing stadiums for these large sporting events.
I'm looking forward to the womens world cup, but do you want to make a list of how many countires around the world have built new stadiums for the womens world cup? Let alone 40,000 seat stadiums? I'd be surprised if you could find one example.

I'm not against change and I'd be celebrating if they were going to build us a new stadium, all I'm saying is the governent isn't made of money and government spend has to be justified. There's no cost-benefit analysis that's going to say that a new soccer stadium is sensible spending at the moment. I hope the A-league turns things around and goes from strength to strength, but we only had 8,000 fans per game turn up this season. Our best hope is some sort of way to integrate a new stadium with other real estate and build something with minimal cost to the taxpayer.
Most of these fans had no interest in the a national league prior to the A League.
The whole thing was revamped and relaunched, and more people became interested. Out with the old in with the new.
Build better venues, with better transport access, follow the same concept as Adelaide Ovals redevelopment for AFL, where people are drawn to it not just for the match but because there's a range of things to do in the city a shop hop over the torrens before and after a match. And the game will grow. Bigger sponsors will come in, bigger tv rights deals will be made, and more money will be flowing to clubs, who will be able to bring in bigger name players.

But by the sounds of things, plenty of A League fans are content with being a second rate competition with minimal crowds and interest.
Love your optimism mate. I'm sure a inner city stadium would give us a small attendance boost. AFL had decades of high attendance to justify the Adelaide Oval, soccer however does not. Hopefully we can get more sponsors and TV rights, but right now the A-league's biggest sponsor has pulled out and they can't find a replacement and our TV rights holder wants to pull out on us too. Just encouraging you to be realistic.
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[VIS] Re: New inner-city stadium

Post by Patrick_27 »

Ho Really wrote:
Wed Nov 18, 2020 12:28 pm
There are some people on this forum that like second rate. They aren’t interested in aiming for the best and looking into the future.

Soccer (football) is a world game and FIFA is the governing body if and I say IF we want the best then we need to go by those rules. Forget what the FFA does or doesn’t do. Only a 40,000 seat fully covered stadium will do. Any half-arsed solution now or in the future will not cut it.

The argument that 40,000 seats is too much and won’t be filled regularly is hollow. Special events (soccer finals and other sports, etc.,) and concerts can do this. The stadium will have a retractable roof. Like I said aim for the best no half-arsed patch-up jobs. Built once and you got it 50 years at least.

Location-wise the University Oval is perfect. Central in a park setting and close to the CBD with public transport (like Adelaide Oval on footy days) with also the possibility of a tram extension through North Adelaide and who knows even underground rail into the CBD in future servicing both AO and this stadium.

Several other questions have been answered by rev regarding Hindmarsh Stadium, transport, etc. The Entertainment Centre should remain as is. Too much has already been invested there and would be a good partner to a redeveloped Memorial Drive.

Cheers
Mate, what city are you talking about here? We're talking about Adelaide... Generally speaking (pre-COVID) we might have had two, possibly three live music/entertainment events a year that require a capacity of 40,000+ capacity and in any case they would and will still likely go to AO. And as for soccer/football, I'll repeat myself, Adelaide does NOT have the supporter base to justify a stadium that large. Melbourne, a city four times the size of Adelaide, has a purpose built rectangular stadium that is only 30,000 capacity (and for internationals use their oval stadiums (Marvel and MCG) and they have had no reason to build any bigger in terms of rectangular stadiums even with two A-League teams and talk of a third somewhere down the line.

As for University Oval, you and Rev keep harping on about how perfect it is, meanwhile to make it what you're proposing you don't just have to build the stadium, you need to extend the tram line a further kilometre, build new footbridges (both of these easily another $50-100m), and you're talking about an underground loop passing through there potentially? What pie in the sky rubbish is this? These convenient things ALREADY exist in Hindmarsh as stated and could be further enhanced at a must less costly rate. And re: Entertainment Centre, the 'investment' there was merely polishing a turd, there was very little backline upgrades done in the last upgrade, merely cosmetic. People preach on here about logic and consolidation, but having an upgraded Memorial Drive and a separate Entertainment Centre is the stupidest logic ever.
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[VIS] Re: New inner-city stadium

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Patrick_27 wrote:
Wed Nov 18, 2020 5:24 pm
Mate, what city are you talking about here? We're talking about Adelaide... Generally speaking (pre-COVID) we might have had two, possibly three live music/entertainment events a year that require a capacity of 40,000+ capacity and in any case they would and will still likely go to AO. And as for soccer/football, I'll repeat myself, Adelaide does NOT have the supporter base to justify a stadium that large. Melbourne, a city four times the size of Adelaide, has a purpose built rectangular stadium that is only 30,000 capacity (and for internationals use their oval stadiums (Marvel and MCG) and they have had no reason to build any bigger in terms of rectangular stadiums even with two A-League teams and talk of a third somewhere down the line.
The new soccer stadium will have a retractable roof. That alone will attract concerts and other special events that AO can't deliver. Who says you won't get 40,000 crowds? We got them for Adelaide United finals, Liverpool, etc. The A-League is not the only source of soccer...and soccer does not belong at the AO full stop.
As for University Oval, you and Rev keep harping on about how perfect it is, meanwhile to make it what you're proposing you don't just have to build the stadium, you need to extend the tram line a further kilometre, build new footbridges (both of these easily another $50-100m), and you're talking about an underground loop passing through there potentially? What pie in the sky rubbish is this? These convenient things ALREADY exist in Hindmarsh as stated and could be further enhanced at a must less costly rate. And re: Entertainment Centre, the 'investment' there was merely polishing a turd, there was very little backline upgrades done in the last upgrade, merely cosmetic. People preach on here about logic and consolidation, but having an upgraded Memorial Drive and a separate Entertainment Centre is the stupidest logic ever.
Yes we'll keep harping on because it is the best place for a visionary stadium. The Police Barracks is second on that list. Priceline would've been next but that will remain netball. The old brewery perhaps but it won't be a spectacular location like the University Oval.

Please don't ever mention HIndmarsh Stadium again. It was great during the old days of the NSL and perhaps the first few years of the A-League but now let's be serious. It can't be expanded any further than perhaps a few thousand extra seats. A roof for a new stand that won't keep any rain off the patrons etc. It will be a wasted opportunity and not an investment.

The tram line will go at least up to Adelaidse Oval. So what is the big deal?

The Entertainment Centre can stay as is. It is still a good venue for indoor events. Memorial Drive will work in tandem. The logic is that Memorial Drive cannot host some events that are better suited to the Entertainment Centre.

As for the underground rail I think you and a few others here need to put your thinking caps on. Yes, we are talking about billions of dollars. Public transport is expensive but it is always an investment for the future. If Adelaide wants to be a city that is admired it needs to have visionary projects, otherwise with reasoning like yours Patrick we’ll be a laughing stock.

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[VIS] Re: New inner-city stadium

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gnrc_louis wrote:
Wed Nov 18, 2020 10:48 am
Bob wrote:
Wed Nov 18, 2020 10:46 am
SRW wrote:
Wed Nov 18, 2020 10:39 am
I think you could argue the Entertainment Centre has as good or better public transport connections than Adelaide Oval -- it's physically closer to both the tramline and railway as well as key bus routes.
I am not sure if your comment is sarcasm or if you are serious? If serious, what are you smoking?

Besides, you want interstate and international tourists to be attending events in the best part of your city – not send them out to a wasteland.
"A wasteland" lol are we in The Advertiser comments section?
Let’s see…

Port Rd Thebarton – Coke factory closed & abandoned, Wiggs Stationary factory closed & abandoned, SA Brewery soon to be closed & abandoned. A major arterial that should have masterplan for residential redevelopment but doesn’t leaving nothing more than storage units, motor trade businesses and vacant land. Two working class pubs The Southwark & Squatter Arms struggling to survive and without the brewery probably wont. Once a bustling strip of productivity…Yep certainly looking more like a wasteland.

Bowden – the so call wonderful urban design masterpiece of urban renewal. Well is reality it has far more vacant land with weeds growing out of it than new buildings. Once the area was another bustling hub of productivity – now it is a wasteland. Tram& train stops next to it, yet car parking congests the streets, everyone still driving – that’s a fail. Have you been to Plant 4? What a joke – a convenience store for the supermarket and a few hipster outlets. The Adelaide City Council had to build facilities at tis expense on the nearby parklands so these new residents had somewhere to play court sports, skate, ride bikes, garden and now the demand of new public toilets – yet the Bowden development is n Charles Sturt Council? Why didn’t the development include these things? Then let’s put a pedestrian crossing on the main ring road so every time someone needs to take their kid across the road to play in the ACC provide facilities they stop all 6 lanes of heavy traffic - the grade separation of the rail line was done to stop this kind of thing, now it’s reintroduced. If Bowden was such a wonderful urban design success, then why can’t they create the demand to fill it after all these years? Maybe not many people want to live there in that area? I wonder why? Maybe the wasteland environment has something to do with it?

Netball Stadium – purpose built on the old Mile End rail yards and removed the suburban railway station but put in a carpark instead, so everyone drives to the netball. On arrival take a look at the surrounding area – yet another disconnected wasteland, A Sydney visitor commented to me the other year it was like going to somewhere in Wagga Wagga – a harsh review but I hard to argue.

Richmond Oval – once near a rail corridor but some bright spark decided to build James Congdon Drive on the corridor instead of fixing South Rd – a corridor that would have helped in creating a PT rail, heavy or light, to the airport and via this oval, another lost opportunity, Instead Mile End South that was also once a bustling hub of a activity is now home improvement centres and endless through traffic – a hostile area for any pedestrians and standing in the middle and looking around is not a scenic view, plenty of weeds about.

I keep going through each element until my post is long no one would bother to read it, so I leave it there…

Now back to the inner-city stadium – this is the time to redevelop MD properly and provide Netball, Basketball & Tennis a proper home to be proud of in a prime location that is central in an aesthetically pleasing environment. But what is happening is all this distraction of trying to roll a one size first all solution into one new big inner stadium – that idea needs scrapping once and for all, Do MD now, leave the rectangular grass sport out of that equation and revisit that as a separate exercise, if soccer decides it want to stay at Hindmarsh leave them behind, but they need to stop pulling the whole ship down with them and their inner west push to have other things moved there.
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[VIS] Re: New inner-city stadium

Post by Ho Really »

All good points Bob. Thanks for your contribution.

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[VIS] Re: New inner-city stadium

Post by Brucetiki »

cmet wrote:
Tue Nov 10, 2020 11:35 pm
rev wrote:
cmet wrote:
Tue Nov 10, 2020 4:10 pm
I think stage 2 memorial drive gets a pass mark, shame about Hindmarsh though
A pass for what?

Second rate tournaments of almost zero relevance?
We recently got an ATP tour event yes?
And a WTA event
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