News & Discussion: Adelaide Metro Trains

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Eurostar
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Re: News & Discussion: Adelaide Metro Trains

Post by Eurostar »

As part of the Gawler Rail Electrification Project (GREP), the Department for Infrastructure and Transport (the Department) advises of a temporary closure to the Gawler Central Railway Station car park (Park ‘n’ Ride) from Monday 1 March 2021 until Sunday 10 October 2021. The closure of this car park will be utilised by the crews to enable the construction of the new King Street Pedestrian Bridge and new electrified rail infrastructure. The car park will re-open to public for use Monday 11 October 2021.

During the closure, commuters can utilise the Park ‘n’ Ride car park available at the Gawler Railway Station (refer to map).Please contact the GREP team on 1300 080 834 or email [email protected] if you have any questions. You can also register for project updates via the project website www.dit.sa.gov.au/grep

As part of GREP, the rail line will continue to be closed until October 2021 for electrification works. Shuttle buses will be running in lieu of the train service, and passengers can board at Cowan St. Shuttle buses are also stopping at all other rail stations. Further information can be found on the Metro Adelaide website:

https://adelaidemetro.com.au/Announceme ... xing%20Day

Thank you for your patience as these important works occur.
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Re: News & Discussion: Adelaide Metro Trains

Post by Jacob_ULG3 »

Eurostar wrote:
Mon Feb 15, 2021 10:45 pm
As part of the Gawler Rail Electrification Project (GREP), the Department for Infrastructure and Transport (the Department) advises of a temporary closure to the Gawler Central Railway Station car park (Park ‘n’ Ride) from Monday 1 March 2021 until Sunday 10 October 2021. The closure of this car park will be utilised by the crews to enable the construction of the new King Street Pedestrian Bridge and new electrified rail infrastructure. The car park will re-open to public for use Monday 11 October 2021.

During the closure, commuters can utilise the Park ‘n’ Ride car park available at the Gawler Railway Station (refer to map).Please contact the GREP team on 1300 080 834 or email [email protected] if you have any questions. You can also register for project updates via the project website www.dit.sa.gov.au/grep

As part of GREP, the rail line will continue to be closed until October 2021 for electrification works. Shuttle buses will be running in lieu of the train service, and passengers can board at Cowan St. Shuttle buses are also stopping at all other rail stations. Further information can be found on the Metro Adelaide website:

https://adelaidemetro.com.au/Announceme ... xing%20Day

Thank you for your patience as these important works occur.
To put that into perspective. Means that the king street bridge is being reconstructed now as we speak and the railway station itself is closed and wont be open until 10th October 2021 (this year). Meaning the electrification project itself will be finished with the entire line being electrified and the king street bridge being modified to accomodate the electrification will open up to passengers with electric trains running on the 11th October First service i believe, unless, god forbid, delays on the project start rolling in again. That's from the Adelaide Metro site with the closure list and the Gawler Central car park closed as well.

A lot can happen between now and the 10th of October.
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Re: News & Discussion: Adelaide Metro Trains

Post by Spotto »

Will the corridor under the new bridge be wide enough for double track to future-proof easy duplication? It looks a bit worryingly narrow in the renders but I can't tell for sure. If the line ever gets extended to Concordia, duplication probably won't even be a question.
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Re: News & Discussion: Adelaide Metro Trains

Post by SBD »

Spotto wrote:
Tue Feb 16, 2021 10:53 am
Will the corridor under the new bridge be wide enough for double track to future-proof easy duplication? It looks a bit worryingly narrow in the renders but I can't tell for sure. If the line ever gets extended to Concordia, duplication probably won't even be a question.
Would duplication be required to extend the service to Concordia? That would probably more than double the cost, with a new bridge over the South Para River, even assuming the corridor is wide enough for two tracks between the bridge and Gawler Oval Station.
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Re: News & Discussion: Adelaide Metro Trains

Post by rubberman »

Just a question.

Has the possibility of a service as far as Two Wells or Virginia ever been contemplated?

With electrification to Gawler complete by the end of this year, maybe, there ought to be the ability to have a very fast service from those stations to the CBD if it just did Two Wells, Virginia, Salisbury and express to the CBD.

Dual guage to one of the Adelaide platforms isn't a technical challenge, the trains exist, slotting between freight trains might be an issue, but I don't get the impression that they are all that frequent during commuter peaks.
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Re: News & Discussion: Adelaide Metro Trains

Post by Spotto »

rubberman wrote:
Tue Feb 16, 2021 9:12 pm
Just a question.

Has the possibility of a service as far as Two Wells or Virginia ever been contemplated?

With electrification to Gawler complete by the end of this year, maybe, there ought to be the ability to have a very fast service from those stations to the CBD if it just did Two Wells, Virginia, Salisbury and express to the CBD.

Dual guage to one of the Adelaide platforms isn't a technical challenge, the trains exist, slotting between freight trains might be an issue, but I don't get the impression that they are all that frequent during commuter peaks.
1) The government would have to pay expensive access fees for the SG freight line, which would get prohibitively expensive for something as regular as commuter services.

2) It would require gauge converting a portion of the diesel fleet so that it can run on the SG line. I can’t see them buying brand new SG stock for just one line nor electrifying the freight line.

3) In addition to the train conversion, we’d need track conversions. Not only would at least one platform at ARS need to be made DG but also part of Dry Creek Depot to allow stabling and maintenance. If you intend for them to use the Gawler Line tracks between ARS and Salisbury then that’s even more conversion. Or, expensive access fees to use the SG line.

Other users have previously mentioned technical limitations on making DG track (I’m no expert, trusting their judgment), not to mention it would be insanely expensive all for just one passenger route.

Alternative to all those steps, I also can’t see ARTC tearing up a massive chunk of their line just to make it DG for a few BG passenger services.

A higher priority and far easier task would be extensions to Roseworthy and Concordia to get established PT in before the significant urban developments that are planned.
Last edited by Spotto on Wed Feb 17, 2021 12:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
Eurostar
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Re: News & Discussion: Adelaide Metro Trains

Post by Eurostar »

Jacob_ULG3 wrote:
Tue Feb 16, 2021 10:26 am
Eurostar wrote:
Mon Feb 15, 2021 10:45 pm
As part of the Gawler Rail Electrification Project (GREP), the Department for Infrastructure and Transport (the Department) advises of a temporary closure to the Gawler Central Railway Station car park (Park ‘n’ Ride) from Monday 1 March 2021 until Sunday 10 October 2021. The closure of this car park will be utilised by the crews to enable the construction of the new King Street Pedestrian Bridge and new electrified rail infrastructure. The car park will re-open to public for use Monday 11 October 2021.

During the closure, commuters can utilise the Park ‘n’ Ride car park available at the Gawler Railway Station (refer to map).Please contact the GREP team on 1300 080 834 or email [email protected] if you have any questions. You can also register for project updates via the project website www.dit.sa.gov.au/grep

As part of GREP, the rail line will continue to be closed until October 2021 for electrification works. Shuttle buses will be running in lieu of the train service, and passengers can board at Cowan St. Shuttle buses are also stopping at all other rail stations. Further information can be found on the Metro Adelaide website:

https://adelaidemetro.com.au/Announceme ... xing%20Day

Thank you for your patience as these important works occur.
To put that into perspective. Means that the king street bridge is being reconstructed now as we speak and the railway station itself is closed and wont be open until 10th October 2021 (this year). Meaning the electrification project itself will be finished with the entire line being electrified and the king street bridge being modified to accomodate the electrification will open up to passengers with electric trains running on the 11th October First service i believe, unless, god forbid, delays on the project start rolling in again. That's from the Adelaide Metro site with the closure list and the Gawler Central car park closed as well.

A lot can happen between now and the 10th of October.
I haven't even seen or heard of the new 4000s even arriving.
Eurostar
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Re: News & Discussion: Adelaide Metro Trains

Post by Eurostar »

Spotto wrote:
Tue Feb 16, 2021 10:53 am
Will the corridor under the new bridge be wide enough for double track to future-proof easy duplication? It looks a bit worryingly narrow in the renders but I can't tell for sure. If the line ever gets extended to Concordia, duplication probably won't even be a question.
The very least they can do if there is room is have a siding or extra platform so that trains can run every 15 minutes.
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Re: News & Discussion: Adelaide Metro Trains

Post by Joelmark »

Jacob_ULG3 wrote:
Tue Feb 16, 2021 10:26 am
Eurostar wrote:
Mon Feb 15, 2021 10:45 pm
As part of the Gawler Rail Electrification Project (GREP), the Department for Infrastructure and Transport (the Department) advises of a temporary closure to the Gawler Central Railway Station car park (Park ‘n’ Ride) from Monday 1 March 2021 until Sunday 10 October 2021. The closure of this car park will be utilised by the crews to enable the construction of the new King Street Pedestrian Bridge and new electrified rail infrastructure. The car park will re-open to public for use Monday 11 October 2021.

During the closure, commuters can utilise the Park ‘n’ Ride car park available at the Gawler Railway Station (refer to map).Please contact the GREP team on 1300 080 834 or email [email protected] if you have any questions. You can also register for project updates via the project website www.dit.sa.gov.au/grep

As part of GREP, the rail line will continue to be closed until October 2021 for electrification works. Shuttle buses will be running in lieu of the train service, and passengers can board at Cowan St. Shuttle buses are also stopping at all other rail stations. Further information can be found on the Metro Adelaide website:

https://adelaidemetro.com.au/Announceme ... xing%20Day

Thank you for your patience as these important works occur.
To put that into perspective. Means that the king street bridge is being reconstructed now as we speak and the railway station itself is closed and wont be open until 10th October 2021 (this year). Meaning the electrification project itself will be finished with the entire line being electrified and the king street bridge being modified to accomodate the electrification will open up to passengers with electric trains running on the 11th October First service i believe, unless, god forbid, delays on the project start rolling in again. That's from the Adelaide Metro site with the closure list and the Gawler Central car park closed as well.

A lot can happen between now and the 10th of October.
I think the whole project is scheduled to be finished by the end of the year but then there’s testing and commissioning so the answer to a October 2021 opening is almost certainly no.
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Re: News & Discussion: Adelaide Metro Trains

Post by rubberman »

Spotto wrote:
Wed Feb 17, 2021 12:37 am
rubberman wrote:
Tue Feb 16, 2021 9:12 pm
Just a question.

Has the possibility of a service as far as Two Wells or Virginia ever been contemplated?

With electrification to Gawler complete by the end of this year, maybe, there ought to be the ability to have a very fast service from those stations to the CBD if it just did Two Wells, Virginia, Salisbury and express to the CBD.

Dual guage to one of the Adelaide platforms isn't a technical challenge, the trains exist, slotting between freight trains might be an issue, but I don't get the impression that they are all that frequent during commuter peaks.
1) The government would have to pay expensive access fees for the SG freight line, which would get prohibitively expensive for something as regular as commuter services.

2) It would require gauge converting a portion of the diesel fleet so that it can run on the SG line. I can’t see them buying brand new SG stock for just one line nor electrifying the freight line.

3) In addition to the train conversion, we’d need track conversions. Not only would at least one platform at ARS need to be made DG but also part of Dry Creek Depot to allow stabling and maintenance. If you intend for them to use the Gawler Line tracks between ARS and Salisbury then that’s even more conversion. Or, expensive access fees to use the SG line.

Other users have previously mentioned technical limitations on making DG track (I’m no expert, trusting their judgment), not to mention it would be insanely expensive all for just one passenger route.

Alternative to all those steps, I also can’t see ARTC tearing up a massive chunk of their line just to make it DG for a few BG passenger services.

A higher priority and far easier task would be extensions to Roseworthy and Concordia to get established PT in before the significant urban developments that are planned.
I understand all those steps are required. What was not clear to me was what the actual costs are.

For example. If the Austrac charge was $100/trip, it might be economic. At $10,000 it clearly would not. Are there figures somewhere?

Similarly, bogie conversion is cheap and easy if the original specs for the railcars had planned for conversion in the future. Were they? If yes, cheap as. If not, it's very expensive...although cheaper than buying new stock.

Same with gauge conversion. If there's dual gauge sleepers, it's really cheap and quick. Again, if not, then it's expensive. I thought that the sleepers were dual gauge. I'll have to check next time I look in ARS.

I agree that everything you said needs to be done is valid. However, it could actually be quite cheap if planning for eventual standardisation took place. Did that happen?
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Re: News & Discussion: Adelaide Metro Trains

Post by ChillyPhilly »

rubberman wrote:
Wed Feb 17, 2021 11:17 am
Spotto wrote:
Wed Feb 17, 2021 12:37 am
rubberman wrote:
Tue Feb 16, 2021 9:12 pm
Just a question.

Has the possibility of a service as far as Two Wells or Virginia ever been contemplated?

With electrification to Gawler complete by the end of this year, maybe, there ought to be the ability to have a very fast service from those stations to the CBD if it just did Two Wells, Virginia, Salisbury and express to the CBD.

Dual guage to one of the Adelaide platforms isn't a technical challenge, the trains exist, slotting between freight trains might be an issue, but I don't get the impression that they are all that frequent during commuter peaks.
1) The government would have to pay expensive access fees for the SG freight line, which would get prohibitively expensive for something as regular as commuter services.

2) It would require gauge converting a portion of the diesel fleet so that it can run on the SG line. I can’t see them buying brand new SG stock for just one line nor electrifying the freight line.

3) In addition to the train conversion, we’d need track conversions. Not only would at least one platform at ARS need to be made DG but also part of Dry Creek Depot to allow stabling and maintenance. If you intend for them to use the Gawler Line tracks between ARS and Salisbury then that’s even more conversion. Or, expensive access fees to use the SG line.

Other users have previously mentioned technical limitations on making DG track (I’m no expert, trusting their judgment), not to mention it would be insanely expensive all for just one passenger route.

Alternative to all those steps, I also can’t see ARTC tearing up a massive chunk of their line just to make it DG for a few BG passenger services.

A higher priority and far easier task would be extensions to Roseworthy and Concordia to get established PT in before the significant urban developments that are planned.
I understand all those steps are required. What was not clear to me was what the actual costs are.

For example. If the Austrac charge was $100/trip, it might be economic. At $10,000 it clearly would not. Are there figures somewhere?

Similarly, bogie conversion is cheap and easy if the original specs for the railcars had planned for conversion in the future. Were they? If yes, cheap as. If not, it's very expensive...although cheaper than buying new stock.

Same with gauge conversion. If there's dual gauge sleepers, it's really cheap and quick. Again, if not, then it's expensive. I thought that the sleepers were dual gauge. I'll have to check next time I look in ARS.

I agree that everything you said needs to be done is valid. However, it could actually be quite cheap if planning for eventual standardisation took place. Did that happen?
I believe the 4000s were ordered with bogie conversion in mind, and yes, all recent concrete sleepers are gauge-convertible.
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Re: News & Discussion: Adelaide Metro Trains

Post by SBD »

A more subtle but significant issue with running dual gauge on three rails is platform clearance. Running the same body on the standard gauge rails moves the centre of the train 3.25 inches (about ten centimetres) closer to the common rail than broad gauge, and hence shifts the edge of the train towards or away from platforms, signal poles etc. That could mean that either the train hits the platform, or has a dangerous gap between the platform and the door, risking having feet caught, shoes and teddy bears lost etc.

These things can be addressed, but it’s not always simple either.
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Re: News & Discussion: Adelaide Metro Trains

Post by ChillyPhilly »

SBD wrote:A more subtle but significant issue with running dual gauge on three rails is platform clearance. Running the same body on the standard gauge rails moves the centre of the train 3.25 inches (about ten centimetres) closer to the common rail than broad gauge, and hence shifts the edge of the train towards or away from platforms, signal poles etc. That could mean that either the train hits the platform, or has a dangerous gap between the platform and the door, risking having feet caught, shoes and teddy bears lost etc.

These things can be addressed, but it’s not always simple either.
Very true - this just reinforces the need for a comprehensive masterplan for station upgrades across the network.
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Re: News & Discussion: Adelaide Metro Trains

Post by PeFe »

ChillyPhilly wrote:
Wed Feb 17, 2021 12:27 pm
Very true - this just reinforces the need for a comprehensive masterplan for station upgrades across the network.
"Comprehensive masterplan".......for the the Adelaide metro train network.......this is probably a banned phrase at the DPTI SA.

And both governments can take a slice of the blame here.....Oaklands rebuilt, and rebuilt 10 years later grade separated.

Tonsley line lengthened and stations rebuilt but not Mitchell Park, leaving 2 new stations and one very embarrassing 60's shit hole. I actually complained on the DTI SA Facebook page and they said "no money"....probably true but why not do it at the same time as the price will only increase in the future.

And what is the plan for Aldinga? Will there be a small tod surrounding the station when its built in 2030? We cant just spend millions on line extensions and new stations that just have a car park surrounding the entire area! That is so 1950's planning!

What about the future developments around stations on the Outer Harbor and Gawler lines? Which stations should be redevelopped?
Should the number of stations be culled (yes) and the remaining stations improved?

It wouldn't be so bad if there was some sort of "loose" master plan with no timetable and no commitments unless money becomes available...
the fact that all transport improvements are planned and proceeded with in such random manner is the worry......which direction is the ship going in?
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Re: News & Discussion: Adelaide Metro Trains

Post by Spotto »

PeFe wrote:
Wed Feb 17, 2021 1:17 pm
ChillyPhilly wrote:
Wed Feb 17, 2021 12:27 pm
Very true - this just reinforces the need for a comprehensive masterplan for station upgrades across the network.
"Comprehensive masterplan".......for the the Adelaide metro train network.......this is probably a banned phrase at the DPTI SA.

And both governments can take a slice of the blame here.....Oaklands rebuilt, and rebuilt 10 years later grade separated.

Tonsley line lengthened and stations rebuilt but not Mitchell Park, leaving 2 new stations and one very embarrassing 60's shit hole.
Add to that list the Gawler Line being closed for a year but no work being done on lengthening any of the platforms to take 6-car electrics for event and peak services or raising them to make them all accessible without those silly ramp squares like some stations have. Heck, there's still some stations on the Seaford Line that can't take 6-cars and a good number that still have a decent step up to the trains. Bare minimum, all stations across all lines should be raised and lengthened within the next 5 years making them fully accessible, no excuses. Expensive yes, disruptive absolutely, but once it's done the network is future-proofed for the next decade or two just like all of the track renewals a little over 10 years ago.

The Oaklands situation will definitely happen with Hove. They'll grade separate at Brighton Road and not touch Jetty Road, then 5-10 years down the track go "oh, maybe we should do Jetty Road too".
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