News & Discussion: Electricity Infrastructure

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monotonehell
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Re: News & Discussion: Electricity Infrastructure

#211 Post by monotonehell » Wed Feb 21, 2018 5:04 pm

Just a technical point.

mW is milliwatt
MW is megawatt
Exit on the right in the direction of travel.

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Re: News & Discussion: Electricity Infrastructure

#212 Post by PD2/20 » Wed Feb 21, 2018 6:24 pm

Spurdo wrote:
Wed Feb 21, 2018 2:04 pm
Plans are up for the Quarantine Power Station Expansion (Three new turbines - 160/180 MW + LPG import terminal)

- https://www.saplanningcommission.sa.gov ... -_2895.pdf
- https://www.saplanningcommission.sa.gov ... uments.pdf
This means AGL, Alinta and Origin all have gas power station in the pipeline.

AGL Barker Inlet 210MW reciprocating - construction started 5 Feb 2018 -Torrerns A partial replacement
Alinta Reeves Plains 100-150MW (final 300 MW) gas turbine, dual fuel - development application awaiting approval
Origin Quarantine 160/180 MW gas turbine - development approval sought - see above

In addition the SA Gov emergency GT generator 275 MW will be relocated to Bolivar.

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Re: News & Discussion: Electricity Infrastructure

#213 Post by PeFe » Thu Feb 22, 2018 10:05 am

PD2/20, will the total generating capacity increase with these new gas turbines, or are they replacing old machinery with new?

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Re: News & Discussion: Electricity Infrastructure

#214 Post by bits » Thu Feb 22, 2018 10:19 am

Agl wanted to close Torrens A in 2014 as it is end of life.
Torrens A is 480MW, built in 1967.
Playford B (Port Augusta) had 240MW and built 1963.

Torrens B is 800MW and built 1976. I assume a lot of this new generation we have seen recently is planning for the retirement of Torrens B also.

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Re: News & Discussion: Electricity Infrastructure

#215 Post by PeFe » Thu Feb 22, 2018 10:44 am

And yet another development in the reneweables field.........

From Renew Economy
Germany’s sonnen to build battery manufacturing plant in Adelaide

Image

The South Australia Labor government has scored a major coup, announcing that leading German battery storage company sonnen is to establish a battery manufacturing plant in Adelaide, creating more than 400 jobs.
Sonnen, which has entered the Australian domestic market with its “sonnet-flat” battery storage package, says it intends to manufacture 50,000 battery storage units in Adelaide over the next five years.
The announcement follows a flurry of major news from the Labor government as it enters a bitter and hard-fought election that has renewable energy policies at its heart.
These include the state’s 75 per cent renewable energy target, a 25 per cent renewable storage target, and numerous individual renewable energy and energy storage projects, including batteries, pumped hydro and hydrogen.
Sonnen has been considering a manufacturing plant in Australia for some time, and appears to have been swayed by state government support, particularly its newly announced “interest free” loans to help 10,000 households install solar and battery storage.
Preference will be made for locally-sourced products under the interest free scheme.
Chris Parratt, the sonnen managing director in Australia, says the manufacturing plant would target both Australia and overseas markets.
“It realises our expectation that Australia will become the world’s number one market for energy storage systems,” Parratt says.
“This partnership not only underscores South Australia’s reputation as the centre for energy policy in Australia, but provides an opportunity for South Australian households to gain access to sonnen technology at fair prices to dramatically reduce their energy costs.”
Sonnen has manufacturing plants in Germany and the US, and intends to make the Adelaide plant its central shipping facility for Australia and the Asia and South Pacific region. Its regional headquarters will also move to Adelaide, from Sydney.
It says the new manufacturing centre and head office will create 130 jobs in Adelaide, growing to 190 within five years, and with a further 300 installation jobs to be created within six months of the centre’s opening.
Sonnen’s unique “sonnen flat” scheme operates like a mobile phone payment scheme. If the household owns the system outright, they pay only a flat monthly free of $40-$60 a month for their electricity needs.
Energy minister Tom Koutsantonis said the new manufacturing plant would mean South Australian could buy battery storage systems made locally.

“I look forward to the first SA-made sonnen batteries rolling off the production lines and into South Australian homes – delivering cheaper power through more renewable energy,” he said in a statement.
http://reneweconomy.com.au/germanys-son ... ide-36003/

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Re: News & Discussion: Electricity Infrastructure

#216 Post by PD2/20 » Thu Feb 22, 2018 3:46 pm

PeFe wrote:
Thu Feb 22, 2018 10:05 am
PD2/20, will the total generating capacity increase with these new gas turbines, or are they replacing old machinery with new?
bits wrote:
Thu Feb 22, 2018 10:19 am
Agl wanted to close Torrens A in 2014 as it is end of life.
Torrens A is 480MW, built in 1967.
Playford B (Port Augusta) had 240MW and built 1963.

Torrens B is 800MW and built 1976. I assume a lot of this new generation we have seen recently is planning for the retirement of Torrens B also.
AGL are billing their project as replacement for Torrens Island A. They have proposed a second phase of 210 MW to the project, which will almost completely replace the 480 MW of TI A.

Origin are describing their project as an extension of their existing Quarantine facility.

I suppose the Alinta project could be viewed as a belated replacement for the 520 MW of Northern Power Station, Playford B having been effectively retired a few years ago.

What is of interest is the move away from thermal plant to fast starting reciprocating or open cycle GT plant with all three projects feeding into the 275 kV network.

Another gas project recently noted on this forum is the replacement of one of the Gt's at Hallett, with no increase in capacity.

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Re: News & Discussion: Electricity Infrastructure

#217 Post by bits » Thu Feb 22, 2018 4:31 pm


PD2/20 wrote: What is of interest is the move away from thermal plant to fast starting reciprocating or open cycle GT plant with all three projects feeding into the 275 kV network.
Do you think that the future will be base load from renewable such as wind and solar partially backed up by storage via battery or hydro.
With that renewable not giving completely dependable output so peaking gas etc coming in for rapid start if renewables run out of steam?

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Re: News & Discussion: Electricity Infrastructure

#218 Post by claybro » Thu Feb 22, 2018 7:05 pm

Somewhere between the wild statements of all sides of the energy debate lies the truth of capability, reliability, and cost, but you really have to admire the cods of The SA state gov virtually doubling down on its commitment to renewables. It is sure drawing some positive attention internationally and starting to gain traction employment wise. The opposition seem to think if they just sit back and do nothing, they are in.

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Re: News & Discussion: Electricity Infrastructure

#219 Post by SBD » Thu Feb 22, 2018 8:58 pm

bits wrote:
Thu Feb 22, 2018 4:31 pm
PD2/20 wrote: What is of interest is the move away from thermal plant to fast starting reciprocating or open cycle GT plant with all three projects feeding into the 275 kV network.
Do you think that the future will be base load from renewable such as wind and solar partially backed up by storage via battery or hydro.
With that renewable not giving completely dependable output so peaking gas etc coming in for rapid start if renewables run out of steam?
Do the different technologies have significantly different efficiency ratios? I interpret that the reciprocating engines have less drop-off in excessively hot weather. I understood that combined cycle turbines have higher efficiency than open cycle, so I thought that perhaps any plants intended to be running most of the time might be made as CCGT. I guess one of the things I am not privy to is the pricing model of the NEM - does it actually reward "base load" power, or is there no economic reward at present for having power stations that have to be running?

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Re: News & Discussion: Electricity Infrastructure

#220 Post by Vee » Fri Mar 02, 2018 8:26 am

News this morning that the Turnbull government is going to buy out the NSW and Vic govts Snowy 2.0 shares for $6 billion.

Huge boost to the infrastructure etc budgets of these two states but no mention yet of the possible total cost of this massive project.
The deal means the Commonwealth will wholly own the company and is a step closer to starting work on the Snowy Hydro 2.0 scheme.
It is buying New South Wales' 58 per cent stake in the project for $4.1 billion, while Victoria has agreed to relinquish its 29 per cent shareholding for $2 billion.
ABC News:
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-03-02/g ... 6b/9500908

And ABC News reported on the Oz energy market over summer here:
Price spikes, demand records and the Tesla battery: How the energy market saw off summer

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-03-02/h ... er/9492000

Distributed energy, renewables, battery storage v “monster” Snowy 2.0?
SA is making a case for a distributed system with battery storage and smart technology.

Tesla big battery results suggests local storage projects better than “monster projects”
Meanwhile, new analysis of the performance of the Tesla big battery in South Australia suggests that distributed local battery and pumped hydro projects could offer better value to the grid than a single “monster” project like Snowy 2.0.

The analysis, from energy analyst Hugh Saddler, in his quarterly update of the National Electricity Market for The Australia Institute, will make a useful contribution to the debate over the future of storage in Australia.

The Tesla big battery, known as the Hornsdale Power Reserve, has impressed all observers since it was switched on in early December, with the notable exception of the federal government which wants instead to build the massive Snowy 2.0 pumped hydro project at a cost of $8 billion or more.

Saddler’s analysis confirms earlier reports ... that its speed and flexibility allows it to intervene in high-priced events and “take the straw off the camel’s back.”

Already, the battery’s has eliminated significant price gouging in the small FCAS market ....
Premier Jay Weatherill confirmed this week that the Tela battery had “smashed” the gas cartel’s hold over the FCAS market, which provides network security.

Its influence on the bigger wholesale electricity market is less marked, because with only 30MW of capacity dedicated to arbitrage, it is still just clipping the peaks of a local grid that can consume up to 3,000MW or more at times of peak demand.
And, Saddler says, Hornsdale is clearly making the case for distributed storage.

“The experience of operating Hornsdale Power Reserve already demonstrates that multiple smaller energy storage facilities, which will certainly include both batteries and small pumped hydro projects, located close to wind and solar generators, are almost certainly better suited to matching variable supply with varying demand than a single monster project located a thousand kilometres or more away.” he says.

This is a clear reference to Snowy 2.0, which he also notes will only be able to deliver its service via multiple transmission lines “which often reach saturation capacity when demand for electricity reaches peak.”
More:
Renew Economy:
http://reneweconomy.com.au/tesla-big-ba ... cts-73385/

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Re: News & Discussion: Electricity Infrastructure

#221 Post by Llessur2002 » Tue Mar 20, 2018 2:10 pm

An interesting piece in the Guardian today:
Does a new government in South Australia spell doom for renewables?

Premier Steven Marshall has vowed to end Labor’s energy ‘experiments’, but a sector full of momentum is just one obstacle he faces.

The new Liberal government in South Australia has pledged to end Labor’s taxpayer-funded “experiments” in energy, but faces a renewables sector full of momentum and a potentially difficult upper house.

Under 16 years of Labor government, South Australia became a world leader in adopting the renewable energy technologies necessary to avert the existential threat of climate change, from the Rann government’s windfarm rollout in the 2000s to the Weatherill government’s commitment to energy storage systems and solar this decade.

The new SA premier, Steven Marshall, has vowed a range of measures that appear to threaten the energy transition, from promising to repeal the state’s renewable energy target (RET), to building a new interconnector with New South Wales for importing coal-fired energy, to cancelling Labor’s deal with Tesla to build a virtual power plant connecting 50,000 home battery storage systems.

As opposition leader, Marshall attacked most of Labor’s energy agenda, including criticism of Jay Weatherill for not intervening to save the state’s now-abandoned Port Augusta coal power plant in 2015.

A range of experts and senior industry figures however aren’t so sure Marshall’s proposals have the capacity to do much damage to a local renewables sector that is by far the strongest in the country and has substantial locked-in growth in the years ahead. Marshall’s pledge to remove the state RET in favour of a national framework sounds significant, but experts note that the current target of 50% renewables by 2025 was achieved last year.

Energy analyst Hugh Saddler told Guardian Australia that even Labor’s election pledge to lift the target to 75% was somewhat redundant: “Take the rhetoric with a shovel full of salt. The amount of renewables projects already in development will take the state up to 75% as it is.”

It is a point echoed by a range of experts and top industry professionals including the Tilt Renewables chief executive, Deion Campbell, who is overseeing a range of solar, wind and energy storage projects in the state.

A dissenting voice is Solar Citizens South Australia campaigner Dan Spencer, who campaigned during the election to pressure the Liberals to abandon their plans for repealing the target. “The target is really important, it sends a message to community and industry about where we’re going. Scrapping our renewable energy target signals that maybe they’re not welcome here,” he said.

A centrepiece of Marshall’s energy security plan is a $200m fund to enhance connections with the national grid, with the only project announced so far a new interconnector with NSW.

Marshall initially sold the project as an energy security measure, but later began to promote it as a way to sell SA’s excess green energy generation interstate.

David Blowers, an energy policy specialist at the Grattan Institute, said it will certainly be able to do both, but believes initially it will import more energy from NSW than it will export.

Longer-term however, he thinks an interconnector might actually incentivise further renewables growth in SA as there will be a bigger market to sell energy to.

Blowers says an interconnector could take up to nine years to plan and build, and cost well in excess of Marshall’s initial $200m fund.

“It needs a proper cost-benefit analysis, and promising to do it without that analysis is risky,” he said.

Then there is the question of what will become of Labor’s plan to build a virtual power plant connecting 50,000 home battery storage systems in partnership with Tesla.

On Monday Marshall told ABC Radio National that the plan is “not part of our agenda”, but when being sworn in as premier later that day clarified that if Labor had already entered into any contracts “we’ll be honouring them”.

Even if the plan is abandoned, Marshall has committed to proceed with his own $100m plan to subsidise the installation of 40,000 solar and home battery storage systems.

The main differences between the plans are a question of who benefits and who pays. Labor’s plan would be largely financed by Tesla, and benefit at least 25,100 Housing Trust homes, who would not have ownership of or have to pay for the home battery storage systems, but would enjoy a 30% cut to their energy bill.

The Liberal plan would cost taxpayers $100m in subsidies to households prepared to buy their own rooftop solar and home battery storage systems, pricing out lower socioeconomic groups.

Blowers said the main difference from an energy infrastructure perspective is a question of ambition.

“[The Liberal plan] of subsided solar home batteries seems to be subsidy for people to reduce reliance on grid, which sounds like a relatively expensive way of reducing energy prices,” he said.

“The virtual power plan is a more interesting experiment, in that those batteries almost become a combined battery that can do a range of things, including selling to the grid when prices are high.”

If Marshall unveils further plans that could impact on renewables, there is one obstacle he will have to face: SA’s Legislative Council.

Although the Liberals are expected to form a majority government out of Saturday’s state election, the SA upper house is a mixed bag.

The Liberals will have to secure the support of the majority of a likely crossbench of six, including two Greens. Nick Xenophon’s SA Best is on track for two seats and supports maintaining the current RET and investing in energy storage networks to underpin renewables.

The SA Best upper house MP Frank Pangallo says the party’s priority will be realising their policy for a non-for-profit energy retailer, but he would not commit to blocking repeals of the RET or funding of the interconnector.

“I think we can work with the Liberals and Mr Marshall, but we’d like them to look at our plan, which makes a lot of sense, unlike theirs,” he said.
From: https://www.theguardian.com/australia-n ... renewables

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Re: News & Discussion: Electricity Infrastructure

#222 Post by Spurdo » Tue Mar 20, 2018 3:03 pm

Probably going to get a lot of h8 for this, but doesn't it seem strange that renewables advocates always say "renewables are so advanced they don't need subsidies" but when the feds suggested removing renewables subsidies they all went "OMG your going to kill the renewables industry"? just seems a bit hypocritical to me. Probably the wrong spot for this but I just thought I'd bring it up.

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Re: News & Discussion: Electricity Infrastructure

#223 Post by Nort » Tue Mar 20, 2018 3:56 pm

Spurdo wrote:
Tue Mar 20, 2018 3:03 pm
Probably going to get a lot of h8 for this, but doesn't it seem strange that renewables advocates always say "renewables are so advanced they don't need subsidies" but when the feds suggested removing renewables subsidies they all went "OMG your going to kill the renewables industry"? just seems a bit hypocritical to me. Probably the wrong spot for this but I just thought I'd bring it up.
The roll out of renewable energy sources will still happen because in many cases now they make more financial sense. At the same time we are much less likely to lead the way and attract industry here to create products locally and even export them.

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Re: News & Discussion: Electricity Infrastructure

#224 Post by PD2/20 » Tue Mar 20, 2018 6:44 pm

The Alinta OCGT power station at Reeves Plains has now received development approval.
https://www.alintaenergy.com.au/about-u ... n-proposal

See my previous post at https://www.sensational-adelaide.com/fo ... 82#p163782

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Re: News & Discussion: Electricity Infrastructure

#225 Post by rubberman » Wed Mar 21, 2018 1:07 pm

Spurdo wrote:
Tue Mar 20, 2018 3:03 pm
Probably going to get a lot of h8 for this, but doesn't it seem strange that renewables advocates always say "renewables are so advanced they don't need subsidies" but when the feds suggested removing renewables subsidies they all went "OMG your going to kill the renewables industry"? just seems a bit hypocritical to me. Probably the wrong spot for this but I just thought I'd bring it up.
It's pretty simple. Coal and gas plants need long lives to pay off their capital. A coal plant of $700m requires $20m per year plus interest for a 35 year life, but $140m per year plus interest for a 5 year life. A 5 year life requiring that amount of cash flow is way more expensive than renewables, subsidies or no.

However, renewables are coming down in price so fast that no bank or pension fund will provide loans for 35 years. Simply no way. So, new coal plants are now unable to attract funding unless there's a government guarantee. Why should governments provide that guarantee when it means keeping open coal plants likely to be very expensive?

So, coal plants are closing because bankers and pension funds won't touch them.

So, either governments subsidise renewables for four or five years to build up capacity as coal declines, or we put up with shortages till the market catches up.

Basically, it's either subsidise renewables, or put up with power shortages till the renewable price comes down. Coal is no option because no one will fund them. (Unless the taxpayer can be conned into doing something other financiers will not).

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