News & Discussion: O-Bahn

Threads relating to transport, water, etc. within the CBD and Metropolitan area.
User avatar
SRW
Donating Member
Donating Member
Posts: 3012
Joined: Fri Jun 08, 2007 9:42 pm
Location: City

Re: News & Discussion: O-Bahn

Post by SRW »

TorrensSA wrote:
Fri Oct 30, 2020 6:07 pm
Grenfell Street should be bus only, and have one east bound lane to access the Rundle Place carpark and that road should be left turn only at Hindmarsh Square. You can widen the footpaths, have good large bus shelters and make it nice. Move all North Tce buses to the new bus corridor.
I agree with this. Altho some buses can probably remain on North Tce routes.
Keep Adelaide Weird
User avatar
rev
SA MVP (Most Valued Poster 4000+)
Posts: 4848
Joined: Sat Nov 11, 2006 12:14 pm

Re: News & Discussion: O-Bahn

Post by rev »

TorrensSA wrote:
Fri Oct 30, 2020 6:07 pm
Grenfell Street should be bus only, and have one east bound lane to access the Rundle Place carpark and that road should be left turn only at Hindmarsh Square. You can widen the footpaths, have good large bus shelters and make it nice. Move all North Tce buses to the new bus corridor.
And where do you move all the cars too?
Do you widen and improve surrounding roads? Because that's where all the cars will go. And there will be increased congestion and traffic issues.

I think the solution is to improve public transport first. Make PT efficient and quick, and easy to use for more people. Fast and regular services to more parts of the city and metro area. That shouldn't come at the cost of permanently creating increased road congestion.
More people don't use PT because it's just not convenient for them, and its largely old, dirty, stinky trains and buses that are poorly maintained and don't run to schedule. That's the general image of PT in Adelaide.

See more people started using the tram, because it was a big project to extend it, it was high profile, and the amenities were sufficiently better then previously available, plus it was all new rolling stock. That encouraged people to get on because it changed the perception and image of it.
RetroGamer87
Sen-Rookie-Sational
Posts: 25
Joined: Sat Jun 10, 2017 6:01 pm

Re: News & Discussion: O-Bahn

Post by RetroGamer87 »

SBD wrote:
Fri Oct 30, 2020 1:42 pm
Join up all the basements of buildings along Rundle Mall, and run an O-bahn tunnel with electric buses (to avoid diesel fumes) through them. The shops and arcades already provide natural bridges over the tracks.
I don't think that's how tunnelling works.
rubberman
Legendary Member!
Posts: 1393
Joined: Tue Sep 04, 2007 10:32 pm
Location: ADL ex DRW, ASP, MGB

Re: News & Discussion: O-Bahn

Post by rubberman »

RetroGamer87 wrote:
Sun Nov 01, 2020 12:27 am
SBD wrote:
Fri Oct 30, 2020 1:42 pm
Join up all the basements of buildings along Rundle Mall, and run an O-bahn tunnel with electric buses (to avoid diesel fumes) through them. The shops and arcades already provide natural bridges over the tracks.
I don't think that's how tunnelling works.
It is actually if you use the "cut and cover" method.

This was the method proposed for putting the tram to the North East by Labor underground. (Labor lost and we got the O-bahn).

It's actually cheap(er) if the excavation isn't too deep.

Toronto Canada has a great system like this of tunnels winding through the CBD. It means a lot less waiting at traffic lights and being caught in the rain or heat as a pedestrian. Shops and other businesses also get that traffic as well.
NTRabbit
High Rise Poster!
Posts: 238
Joined: Fri Dec 28, 2018 10:00 pm

Re: News & Discussion: O-Bahn

Post by NTRabbit »

Before expansion, they need to look at overhauling the existing line - in particular most of the track between Paradise and TTP is rough as guts, and is so loud in the buses that it defeats noise cancelling headphones. There are a few other spots like that as well.
Nort
Legendary Member!
Posts: 1481
Joined: Tue Feb 09, 2010 2:08 pm

Re: News & Discussion: O-Bahn

Post by Nort »

rev wrote:
Fri Oct 30, 2020 1:02 pm
Nort wrote:
Fri Oct 30, 2020 9:04 am
It's looking at the problem the wrong way.

Grenfell street is a major commuter road where buses and cars compete. Rather than expensive tunneling, it would be far cheaper to make Grenfell and Currie street's more bus focused.

Completely removing cars from those street's isn't really practical due to the access needed. My favored radical solution would be to effectively turn it into two smaller roads. The South side becoming one lane each way for buses with indented bus stops, and the North side becoming one lane each way for other traffic (much like Pirie Street).
Problem with that is you force cars, and other vehicles, onto other roads. Are the other roads sufficient to cope with the increase?
The population will keep growing, all be it slower then other cities. Shouldn't these coming problems be addressed before they become a major problem, like they left South Road to become a major problem before doing something about it.
It's a CBD road, not a highway.

It either discourages people from driving through the CBD and encourages using the ring road instead (as intended) or it encourages people to use public transport or car pool when coming into the CBD, as is common in larger cities.

As you correctly say Adelaide is growing and the number of cars in the CBD can't grow so the balance needs to move more towards alternate solutions.
TorrensSA wrote:
Fri Oct 30, 2020 6:07 pm
Grenfell Street should be bus only, and have one east bound lane to access the Rundle Place carpark and that road should be left turn only at Hindmarsh Square. You can widen the footpaths, have good large bus shelters and make it nice. Move all North Tce buses to the new bus corridor.
Also not a terrible solution (although there are many more businesses along there than Rundle Place that need road access).
User avatar
1NEEDS2POST
High Rise Poster!
Posts: 295
Joined: Tue Jun 26, 2018 5:01 pm

Re: News & Discussion: O-Bahn

Post by 1NEEDS2POST »

The O-Bahn tunnel was quite cheap at $160 million. The thing is, there are no bus stops inside the tunnel. When you put bus stops in a tunnel, the cost shoots up because the tunnel will be wider where the stops are, plus you need ramps for the pedestrians.
Nort wrote:
Fri Oct 30, 2020 9:04 am
It's looking at the problem the wrong way.

Grenfell street is a major commuter road where buses and cars compete. Rather than expensive tunneling, it would be far cheaper to make Grenfell and Currie street's more bus focused.

Completely removing cars from those street's isn't really practical due to the access needed. My favored radical solution would be to effectively turn it into two smaller roads. The South side becoming one lane each way for buses with indented bus stops, and the North side becoming one lane each way for other traffic (much like Pirie Street).
How would traffic cross the busway into driveways on the other side of the road?

A median busway is a better solution. That way cars can access all of the driveways. They won't be able to turn right, across the busway, but at least drivers have access if they plan ahead. Something like this.

Image
Nort
Legendary Member!
Posts: 1481
Joined: Tue Feb 09, 2010 2:08 pm

Re: News & Discussion: O-Bahn

Post by Nort »

1NEEDS2POST wrote:
Mon Nov 02, 2020 5:02 am
The O-Bahn tunnel was quite cheap at $160 million. The thing is, there are no bus stops inside the tunnel. When you put bus stops in a tunnel, the cost shoots up because the tunnel will be wider where the stops are, plus you need ramps for the pedestrians.
Nort wrote:
Fri Oct 30, 2020 9:04 am
It's looking at the problem the wrong way.

Grenfell street is a major commuter road where buses and cars compete. Rather than expensive tunneling, it would be far cheaper to make Grenfell and Currie street's more bus focused.

Completely removing cars from those street's isn't really practical due to the access needed. My favored radical solution would be to effectively turn it into two smaller roads. The South side becoming one lane each way for buses with indented bus stops, and the North side becoming one lane each way for other traffic (much like Pirie Street).
How would traffic cross the busway into driveways on the other side of the road?

A median busway is a better solution. That way cars can access all of the driveways. They won't be able to turn right, across the busway, but at least drivers have access if they plan ahead. Something like this.

Image
There aren't many driveways along Grenfell Street on the South side, so access could be worked out. Currie would be trickier for sure.

Buses in the middle is a good idea (and matches trams) but does mean that pedestrians from either side have to cross through the car lanes to get to it. Although that's not really a problem if those personal vehicle lanes were akin to Pirie Street with multiple crossings.

One big advantage of the bus median route you propose is that it physically distances the two car lanes, which probably helps drivers think of them more as access lanes rather than a through road.
rubberman
Legendary Member!
Posts: 1393
Joined: Tue Sep 04, 2007 10:32 pm
Location: ADL ex DRW, ASP, MGB

Re: News & Discussion: O-Bahn

Post by rubberman »

1NEEDS2POST wrote:
Mon Nov 02, 2020 5:02 am
The O-Bahn tunnel was quite cheap at $160 million. The thing is, there are no bus stops inside the tunnel. When you put bus stops in a tunnel, the cost shoots up because the tunnel will be wider where the stops are, plus you need ramps for the pedestrians.
Nort wrote:
Fri Oct 30, 2020 9:04 am
It's looking at the problem the wrong way.

Grenfell street is a major commuter road where buses and cars compete. Rather than expensive tunneling, it would be far cheaper to make Grenfell and Currie street's more bus focused.

Completely removing cars from those street's isn't really practical due to the access needed. My favored radical solution would be to effectively turn it into two smaller roads. The South side becoming one lane each way for buses with indented bus stops, and the North side becoming one lane each way for other traffic (much like Pirie Street).
How would traffic cross the busway into driveways on the other side of the road?

A median busway is a better solution. That way cars can access all of the driveways. They won't be able to turn right, across the busway, but at least drivers have access if they plan ahead. Something like this.

Image
The new format seems not to allow upvotes. So, I just have to say that this is how bus lanes need to be in the Grenfell/Currie context.

The present system has buses pulling in and out of the side lanes, totally disrupting the other lanes.

This is what should have happened down North Terrace and Port Road, allowing buses and trams to run segregated from motor vehicle traffic. That's a win for car drivers and bus passengers without disruption to tram services.
User avatar
SRW
Donating Member
Donating Member
Posts: 3012
Joined: Fri Jun 08, 2007 9:42 pm
Location: City

Re: News & Discussion: O-Bahn

Post by SRW »

I think a problem with that median setup is that it leaves less space for footpaths and overtaking lanes for buses when the goal should be to make it a more pleasant environment for pedestrians and a faster corridor for public transport.
Keep Adelaide Weird
SBD
Super Size Scraper Poster!
Posts: 1779
Joined: Thu Apr 03, 2014 3:49 pm
Location: Blakeview

Re: News & Discussion: O-Bahn

Post by SBD »

SRW wrote:
Mon Nov 02, 2020 1:27 pm
I think a problem with that median setup is that it leaves less space for footpaths and overtaking lanes for buses when the goal should be to make it a more pleasant environment for pedestrians and a faster corridor for public transport.
The bus stop appears to be the concrete pad, and the through lane weaves around the stops. There may even be space for a second bus to line up behind the one at the stop. The total road width looks wider than the Grenfell Street width (99ft/30m) though, which was allocated in the time of horses and carts.
bits
Legendary Member!
Posts: 696
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2014 9:24 pm

Re: News & Discussion: O-Bahn

Post by bits »


SBD wrote: There may even be space for a second bus to line up behind the one at the stop.
Grenfell Street is a bus park during peak times.
1 or 2 bus lengths of space is not enough, you need 2 lanes in both directions just for buses. A third lane in both directions that cars and buses can use.
claybro
Super Size Scraper Poster!
Posts: 2184
Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2012 9:16 pm

Re: News & Discussion: O-Bahn

Post by claybro »

SBD wrote:
Mon Nov 02, 2020 1:44 pm
SRW wrote:
Mon Nov 02, 2020 1:27 pm
I think a problem with that median setup is that it leaves less space for footpaths and overtaking lanes for buses when the goal should be to make it a more pleasant environment for pedestrians and a faster corridor for public transport.
The bus stop appears to be the concrete pad, and the through lane weaves around the stops. There may even be space for a second bus to line up behind the one at the stop. The total road width looks wider than the Grenfell Street width (99ft/30m) though, which was allocated in the time of horses and carts.
With talk of a transit corridor mainly from the perspective of O Bahn use of Grenfell Street, does anyone know why the O Bahn has not been considered for electrification in its current form? Conversion to light rail aside (this has been discussed previously ad nauseum), I would have thought the fixed route high frequency corridor would lend itself well to electric buses.
User avatar
SRW
Donating Member
Donating Member
Posts: 3012
Joined: Fri Jun 08, 2007 9:42 pm
Location: City

Re: News & Discussion: O-Bahn

Post by SRW »

claybro wrote:
Mon Nov 02, 2020 3:50 pm
SBD wrote:
Mon Nov 02, 2020 1:44 pm
SRW wrote:
Mon Nov 02, 2020 1:27 pm
I think a problem with that median setup is that it leaves less space for footpaths and overtaking lanes for buses when the goal should be to make it a more pleasant environment for pedestrians and a faster corridor for public transport.
The bus stop appears to be the concrete pad, and the through lane weaves around the stops. There may even be space for a second bus to line up behind the one at the stop. The total road width looks wider than the Grenfell Street width (99ft/30m) though, which was allocated in the time of horses and carts.
With talk of a transit corridor mainly from the perspective of O Bahn use of Grenfell Street, does anyone know why the O Bahn has not been considered for electrification in its current form? Conversion to light rail aside (this has been discussed previously ad nauseum), I would have thought the fixed route high frequency corridor would lend itself well to electric buses.
It'd certainly be preferable to noisy and polluting diesel engines. We've had trolley buses in the past, too. But presumably the tech for battery and hydrogen-powered buses is advancing at a rate now that we could covert the fleet to those within 10 years and avoid the expense/unsightliness of catenary wires.
Keep Adelaide Weird
Nort
Legendary Member!
Posts: 1481
Joined: Tue Feb 09, 2010 2:08 pm

Re: News & Discussion: O-Bahn

Post by Nort »

claybro wrote:
Mon Nov 02, 2020 3:50 pm
SBD wrote:
Mon Nov 02, 2020 1:44 pm
SRW wrote:
Mon Nov 02, 2020 1:27 pm
I think a problem with that median setup is that it leaves less space for footpaths and overtaking lanes for buses when the goal should be to make it a more pleasant environment for pedestrians and a faster corridor for public transport.
The bus stop appears to be the concrete pad, and the through lane weaves around the stops. There may even be space for a second bus to line up behind the one at the stop. The total road width looks wider than the Grenfell Street width (99ft/30m) though, which was allocated in the time of horses and carts.
With talk of a transit corridor mainly from the perspective of O Bahn use of Grenfell Street, does anyone know why the O Bahn has not been considered for electrification in its current form? Conversion to light rail aside (this has been discussed previously ad nauseum), I would have thought the fixed route high frequency corridor would lend itself well to electric buses.
The O Bahn buses spend a lot of their time on normal roads.
Post Reply