News & Discussion: O-Bahn

Threads relating to transport, water, etc. within the CBD and Metropolitan area.
claybro
Super Size Scraper Poster!
Posts: 2172
Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2012 9:16 pm

Re: News & Discussion: O-Bahn

Post by claybro »

Nort wrote:
Tue Nov 03, 2020 9:13 am
claybro wrote:
Mon Nov 02, 2020 3:50 pm
SBD wrote:
Mon Nov 02, 2020 1:44 pm


The bus stop appears to be the concrete pad, and the through lane weaves around the stops. There may even be space for a second bus to line up behind the one at the stop. The total road width looks wider than the Grenfell Street width (99ft/30m) though, which was allocated in the time of horses and carts.
With talk of a transit corridor mainly from the perspective of O Bahn use of Grenfell Street, does anyone know why the O Bahn has not been considered for electrification in its current form? Conversion to light rail aside (this has been discussed previously ad nauseum), I would have thought the fixed route high frequency corridor would lend itself well to electric buses.
The O Bahn buses spend a lot of their time on normal roads.
Why would travelling on "normal roads" prevent them either using wires..as is the case in many cities worldwide-or as stated above using emerging tech eg hydrogen, or even as is used in some scandanavian countries...at stop charging, if wires are deemed too unsightly. There just appears to be no thought to this even though the system is practically designed to operate this way.
SBD
Super Size Scraper Poster!
Posts: 1676
Joined: Thu Apr 03, 2014 3:49 pm
Location: Blakeview

Re: News & Discussion: O-Bahn

Post by SBD »

claybro wrote:
Tue Nov 03, 2020 4:08 pm
Nort wrote:
Tue Nov 03, 2020 9:13 am
claybro wrote:
Mon Nov 02, 2020 3:50 pm


With talk of a transit corridor mainly from the perspective of O Bahn use of Grenfell Street, does anyone know why the O Bahn has not been considered for electrification in its current form? Conversion to light rail aside (this has been discussed previously ad nauseum), I would have thought the fixed route high frequency corridor would lend itself well to electric buses.
The O Bahn buses spend a lot of their time on normal roads.
Why would travelling on "normal roads" prevent them either using wires..as is the case in many cities worldwide-or as stated above using emerging tech eg hydrogen, or even as is used in some scandanavian countries...at stop charging, if wires are deemed too unsightly. There just appears to be no thought to this even though the system is practically designed to operate this way.
I imagine that invitations for contracts to replace buses might be written loosely enough to invite innovative solutions. I assume that last time the buses were replaced, it was not commercially competitive to replace the diesel engine yet. There have been a few buses running on LNG as demonstrations, but they did not replace diesel for the main fleet. I imagine that some of the O-Bahn routes would be some of the first to be amenable to at-stop charging or over-track wires for routes that operate primarily between Currie Street and TTP.
User avatar
1NEEDS2POST
High Rise Poster!
Posts: 295
Joined: Tue Jun 26, 2018 5:01 pm

Re: News & Discussion: O-Bahn

Post by 1NEEDS2POST »

Nort wrote:
Mon Nov 02, 2020 9:16 am
Buses in the middle is a good idea (and matches trams) but does mean that pedestrians from either side have to cross through the car lanes to get to it. Although that's not really a problem if those personal vehicle lanes were akin to Pirie Street with multiple crossings.

One big advantage of the bus median route you propose is that it physically distances the two car lanes, which probably helps drivers think of them more as access lanes rather than a through road.
Yes, pedestrians will have to always cross. Pedestrians always have to cross the road in one direction for a round-trip anyway. With the proposed set up, they will only cross one lane in one direction and three or four in the other. So the distance is the same. The only problem is if they have to wait at traffic lights to cross, they will have to wait twice whereas it was once before. However, if it's a low speed transit mall setup, some of the crossings can be zebra crossings.
SRW wrote:
Mon Nov 02, 2020 1:27 pm
I think a problem with that median setup is that it leaves less space for footpaths and overtaking lanes for buses when the goal should be to make it a more pleasant environment for pedestrians and a faster corridor for public transport.
There are overtaking lanes around the bus stops. Overtaking lanes aren't necessary anywhere else.
SBD wrote:
Mon Nov 02, 2020 1:44 pm
The bus stop appears to be the concrete pad, and the through lane weaves around the stops. There may even be space for a second bus to line up behind the one at the stop. The total road width looks wider than the Grenfell Street width (99ft/30m) though, which was allocated in the time of horses and carts.
These are wide lanes in the picture, plus bicycle lanes. We don't need bicycle lanes there and I think the road lanes could be trimmed a bit to make wider footpaths.
SBD wrote:
Tue Nov 03, 2020 11:34 pm
claybro wrote:
Tue Nov 03, 2020 4:08 pm
Nort wrote:
Tue Nov 03, 2020 9:13 am


The O Bahn buses spend a lot of their time on normal roads.
Why would travelling on "normal roads" prevent them either using wires..as is the case in many cities worldwide-or as stated above using emerging tech eg hydrogen, or even as is used in some scandanavian countries...at stop charging, if wires are deemed too unsightly. There just appears to be no thought to this even though the system is practically designed to operate this way.
I imagine that invitations for contracts to replace buses might be written loosely enough to invite innovative solutions. I assume that last time the buses were replaced, it was not commercially competitive to replace the diesel engine yet. There have been a few buses running on LNG as demonstrations, but they did not replace diesel for the main fleet. I imagine that some of the O-Bahn routes would be some of the first to be amenable to at-stop charging or over-track wires for routes that operate primarily between Currie Street and TTP.
If they build a Greenfell/Currie Streets transit mall, then charging stations could be built into the stops. A huge percentage of Adelaide's bus fleet stops there, so it makes sense to make that a charging point.

Precision Buses, based in SA, can build electric buses https://www.busnews.com.au/industry-new ... -precision but the next 340 buses ordered by the government will be diesel :(
SBD
Super Size Scraper Poster!
Posts: 1676
Joined: Thu Apr 03, 2014 3:49 pm
Location: Blakeview

Re: News & Discussion: O-Bahn

Post by SBD »

Perhaps a year or two before the next tranche of new buses, they will borrow a couple of battery-electric buses and try them out. While the popular narrative is that SA is short on electricity because we only have unreliable renewable energy generators, electrifying both the train and bus networks at the same time might present an electoral risk. Doing the trains, and demonstrating that the NSW interconnector runs from SA most of the time might make electric buses more attractive in future. I imagine they would be a lot quieter, both inside and outside.
Nort
Legendary Member!
Posts: 1428
Joined: Tue Feb 09, 2010 2:08 pm

Re: News & Discussion: O-Bahn

Post by Nort »

claybro wrote:
Tue Nov 03, 2020 4:08 pm
Nort wrote:
Tue Nov 03, 2020 9:13 am
claybro wrote:
Mon Nov 02, 2020 3:50 pm


With talk of a transit corridor mainly from the perspective of O Bahn use of Grenfell Street, does anyone know why the O Bahn has not been considered for electrification in its current form? Conversion to light rail aside (this has been discussed previously ad nauseum), I would have thought the fixed route high frequency corridor would lend itself well to electric buses.
The O Bahn buses spend a lot of their time on normal roads.
Why would travelling on "normal roads" prevent them either using wires..as is the case in many cities worldwide-or as stated above using emerging tech eg hydrogen, or even as is used in some scandanavian countries...at stop charging, if wires are deemed too unsightly. There just appears to be no thought to this even though the system is practically designed to operate this way.
It's more that since they spend a lot of their time not on the O Bahn track the benefits from having them be running on electric while on it would seem to be outweighed by the extra complexity of switching.

Now switching lots of the bus fleet to alternative energy sources (electrifying more of the buses, hydrogen, etc) I'm all in favour of, I just don't see the O Bahn itself offering many beneficial opportunities.
rubberman
Legendary Member!
Posts: 1370
Joined: Tue Sep 04, 2007 10:32 pm
Location: ADL ex DRW, ASP, MGB

Re: News & Discussion: O-Bahn

Post by rubberman »

Nort wrote:
Thu Nov 05, 2020 9:54 am
claybro wrote:
Tue Nov 03, 2020 4:08 pm
Nort wrote:
Tue Nov 03, 2020 9:13 am


The O Bahn buses spend a lot of their time on normal roads.
Why would travelling on "normal roads" prevent them either using wires..as is the case in many cities worldwide-or as stated above using emerging tech eg hydrogen, or even as is used in some scandanavian countries...at stop charging, if wires are deemed too unsightly. There just appears to be no thought to this even though the system is practically designed to operate this way.
It's more that since they spend a lot of their time not on the O Bahn track the benefits from having them be running on electric while on it would seem to be outweighed by the extra complexity of switching.

Now switching lots of the bus fleet to alternative energy sources (electrifying more of the buses, hydrogen, etc) I'm all in favour of, I just don't see the O Bahn itself offering many beneficial opportunities.
There's no complexity involved in switching. You'd have the overhead wires terminate at the first stop in Grenfell Street after the tunnel. As the bus is at the stop, the poles are lowered at the push of a button, and the bus proceeds through the CBD sans wires. On the way back, the process is reversed, again at the press of a button.

The batteries then recharge as the bus traverses the O-Bahn.

The alternative of having charging stops at the terminus is that this generally takes more time, and is probably more suited to infrequent services where an extra ten to twenty minutes at the terminus can be tolerated.
claybro
Super Size Scraper Poster!
Posts: 2172
Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2012 9:16 pm

Re: News & Discussion: O-Bahn

Post by claybro »

Not quite sure why everyone is so adverse to OH wires in Grenfel street, or any of the main roads the Obahn might traverse. Last time I was in Adelaide I have to say the tram overhead was barely noticeable, amongst a streetscape of high rise and advertising on buildings and assorted street signs and lightpoles. what is noticeable in the CBD is the roar and soot of diesel buses, and if a couple of thin wires put a stop to this, then I would say it's a great tradeoff.. likewise for those living adjacent to the track, where the echo of high revving diesel buses is quite loud.
SBD
Super Size Scraper Poster!
Posts: 1676
Joined: Thu Apr 03, 2014 3:49 pm
Location: Blakeview

Re: News & Discussion: O-Bahn

Post by SBD »

claybro wrote:
Thu Nov 05, 2020 2:03 pm
Not quite sure why everyone is so adverse to OH wires in Grenfel street, or any of the main roads the Obahn might traverse. Last time I was in Adelaide I have to say the tram overhead was barely noticeable, amongst a streetscape of high rise and advertising on buildings and assorted street signs and lightpoles. what is noticeable in the CBD is the roar and soot of diesel buses, and if a couple of thin wires put a stop to this, then I would say it's a great tradeoff.. likewise for those living adjacent to the track, where the echo of high revving diesel buses is quite loud.
I agree.

If a trial is to be undertaken, the trial needs to require as little as possible extra infrastructure. If an overnight charge can supply a full day's running, then the only infrastructure needed would be a charge point at the depot. For trial purposes, even if a charge at a fixed point only provides enough for the morning peak, it will address the first step of a trial. If the bus is otherwise as good (probably would be better due to noise), then the operating time needs to be extended, either by wires, at-stop charging, more batteries, whatever-the-manufacturer-proposes.

Wires above Grenfell Street would have very little impact. Wires above the O-bahn track not much more impact. Requiring them in every suburban street that has bus routes would be prohibitively expensive and result in reduced service coverage.

Induction charging at frequently-used stops, particularly the ones that buses stay at for a while (interchanges) adds a bit more range. The goal is to have an electric bus able to operate roughly the same or better timetable as a diesel bus, with reduced operating costs and same or lower capital cost. The more initial infrastructure required, the more expensive the switch over would be.

The manufacturer website linked above claimed 350km range. That is 7 hours at 50km/h so quite possibly enough to cover a driver's shift without any intermediate charging.
User avatar
1NEEDS2POST
High Rise Poster!
Posts: 295
Joined: Tue Jun 26, 2018 5:01 pm

Re: News & Discussion: O-Bahn

Post by 1NEEDS2POST »

Here is an idea: ground level power supply https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ground-level_power_supply like the new trams in Sydney.

Image

Trams use the rails as one part of the electrical circuit, which is why trams have one overhead wire. This doesn't work with buses, so trolleybuses have two wires.

The ground level power supply in Sydney is divided into sections. Only the part under the tram is powered, the other sections of the middle rail are not powered and safe to walk on.

So to make a bus work on this, it just needs to use two collection shoes on the third rail, one on a powered section and the other on a grounded section. We could have this all along the O-Bahn, Grenfell and Currie Streets to recharge the buses.
SBD wrote:
Thu Nov 05, 2020 1:03 am
Perhaps a year or two before the next tranche of new buses, they will borrow a couple of battery-electric buses and try them out. While the popular narrative is that SA is short on electricity because we only have unreliable renewable energy generators, electrifying both the train and bus networks at the same time might present an electoral risk. Doing the trains, and demonstrating that the NSW interconnector runs from SA most of the time might make electric buses more attractive in future. I imagine they would be a lot quieter, both inside and outside.
The problem with charging electric buses is that most will be charged at night, when we don't have solar power! If we can charge (or power them somehow) during the day, then it reduces problems with the grid in SA.
SBD wrote:
Thu Nov 05, 2020 5:32 pm
The manufacturer website linked above claimed 350km range. That is 7 hours at 50km/h so quite possibly enough to cover a driver's shift without any intermediate charging.
Average bus speed is about half of that, so 350 km is more than any bus driver does in a day, except those on country routes.
rubberman
Legendary Member!
Posts: 1370
Joined: Tue Sep 04, 2007 10:32 pm
Location: ADL ex DRW, ASP, MGB

Re: News & Discussion: O-Bahn

Post by rubberman »

1NEEDS2POST wrote:
Thu Nov 05, 2020 9:45 pm
Here is an idea: ground level power supply https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ground-level_power_supply like the new trams in Sydney.

Image

Trams use the rails as one part of the electrical circuit, which is why trams have one overhead wire. This doesn't work with buses, so trolleybuses have two wires.

The ground level power supply in Sydney is divided into sections. Only the part under the tram is powered, the other sections of the middle rail are not powered and safe to walk on.

So to make a bus work on this, it just needs to use two collection shoes on the third rail, one on a powered section and the other on a grounded section. We could have this all along the O-Bahn, Grenfell and Currie Streets to recharge the buses.
SBD wrote:
Thu Nov 05, 2020 1:03 am
Perhaps a year or two before the next tranche of new buses, they will borrow a couple of battery-electric buses and try them out. While the popular narrative is that SA is short on electricity because we only have unreliable renewable energy generators, electrifying both the train and bus networks at the same time might present an electoral risk. Doing the trains, and demonstrating that the NSW interconnector runs from SA most of the time might make electric buses more attractive in future. I imagine they would be a lot quieter, both inside and outside.
The problem with charging electric buses is that most will be charged at night, when we don't have solar power! If we can charge (or power them somehow) during the day, then it reduces problems with the grid in SA.
SBD wrote:
Thu Nov 05, 2020 5:32 pm
The manufacturer website linked above claimed 350km range. That is 7 hours at 50km/h so quite possibly enough to cover a driver's shift without any intermediate charging.
Average bus speed is about half of that, so 350 km is more than any bus driver does in a day, except those on country routes.
That Sydney system was as expensive as heck.

However, it also depends on costs in other ways. Is a big battery in each bus cheaper than smaller batteries plus overhead wires, for example.

Sometimes it's just a question of how much you are prepared to pay.
SBD
Super Size Scraper Poster!
Posts: 1676
Joined: Thu Apr 03, 2014 3:49 pm
Location: Blakeview

Re: News & Discussion: O-Bahn

Post by SBD »

rubberman wrote:
Thu Nov 05, 2020 10:50 pm
1NEEDS2POST wrote:
Thu Nov 05, 2020 9:45 pm
Here is an idea: ground level power supply https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ground-level_power_supply like the new trams in Sydney.

Trams use the rails as one part of the electrical circuit, which is why trams have one overhead wire. This doesn't work with buses, so trolleybuses have two wires.

The ground level power supply in Sydney is divided into sections. Only the part under the tram is powered, the other sections of the middle rail are not powered and safe to walk on.

So to make a bus work on this, it just needs to use two collection shoes on the third rail, one on a powered section and the other on a grounded section. We could have this all along the O-Bahn, Grenfell and Currie Streets to recharge the buses.
SBD wrote:
Thu Nov 05, 2020 1:03 am
Perhaps a year or two before the next tranche of new buses, they will borrow a couple of battery-electric buses and try them out. While the popular narrative is that SA is short on electricity because we only have unreliable renewable energy generators, electrifying both the train and bus networks at the same time might present an electoral risk. Doing the trains, and demonstrating that the NSW interconnector runs from SA most of the time might make electric buses more attractive in future. I imagine they would be a lot quieter, both inside and outside.
The problem with charging electric buses is that most will be charged at night, when we don't have solar power! If we can charge (or power them somehow) during the day, then it reduces problems with the grid in SA.
SBD wrote:
Thu Nov 05, 2020 5:32 pm
The manufacturer website linked above claimed 350km range. That is 7 hours at 50km/h so quite possibly enough to cover a driver's shift without any intermediate charging.
Average bus speed is about half of that, so 350 km is more than any bus driver does in a day, except those on country routes.
That Sydney system was as expensive as heck.

However, it also depends on costs in other ways. Is a big battery in each bus cheaper than smaller batteries plus overhead wires, for example.

Sometimes it's just a question of how much you are prepared to pay.
I suspect that there would be very few routes that are worth stringing wires for the entire length, so a battery of some kind would be needed. The size would be a function of how quickly it can receive top-up charges at a few powered stops or running under (over) wires in the city. Maybe the big flat space on top could have a solar panel on it, but I suspect that could turn out not to be able to be relied on, therefore not worth the cost of installing.
User avatar
1NEEDS2POST
High Rise Poster!
Posts: 295
Joined: Tue Jun 26, 2018 5:01 pm

Re: News & Discussion: O-Bahn

Post by 1NEEDS2POST »

SBD wrote:
Fri Nov 06, 2020 9:02 am
I suspect that there would be very few routes that are worth stringing wires for the entire length, so a battery of some kind would be needed. The size would be a function of how quickly it can receive top-up charges at a few powered stops or running under (over) wires in the city. Maybe the big flat space on top could have a solar panel on it, but I suspect that could turn out not to be able to be relied on, therefore not worth the cost of installing.
Given that trolleybuses aren't being built anywhere, I think the cost is too high compared to battery power.

As for solar panels on the roof, the next generation of ebusco buses, which might be made in SA, are supposed to have a panoramic roof, which will be nice.

Image
claybro
Super Size Scraper Poster!
Posts: 2172
Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2012 9:16 pm

Re: News & Discussion: O-Bahn

Post by claybro »

1NEEDS2POST wrote:
Sat Nov 07, 2020 9:29 pm
SBD wrote:
Fri Nov 06, 2020 9:02 am
I suspect that there would be very few routes that are worth stringing wires for the entire length, so a battery of some kind would be needed. The size would be a function of how quickly it can receive top-up charges at a few powered stops or running under (over) wires in the city. Maybe the big flat space on top could have a solar panel on it, but I suspect that could turn out not to be able to be relied on, therefore not worth the cost of installing.
Given that trolleybuses aren't being built anywhere, I think the cost is too high compared to battery power.

As for solar panels on the roof, the next generation of ebusco buses, which might be made in SA, are supposed to have a panoramic roof, which will be nice.

Image
Trolley buses are used in so many locations in the world it is impossible to believe we could not build them here. The tech is old, cheap and reliable. As for solar panels on the roof? These would charge at best for about 6 hours per day on a flat roof....less in winter...not a viable option.
User avatar
1NEEDS2POST
High Rise Poster!
Posts: 295
Joined: Tue Jun 26, 2018 5:01 pm

Re: News & Discussion: O-Bahn

Post by 1NEEDS2POST »

claybro wrote:
Sat Nov 07, 2020 9:40 pm
Trolley buses are used in so many locations in the world it is impossible to believe we could not build them here. The tech is old, cheap and reliable.
Yes, but not many places are building more trolleybus routes. Meanwhile, lots of places are buying battery electric buses. For example, Wellington shut down their trolleybus system in 2017 and now they are replacing their bus fleet with battery electric buses.
rubberman
Legendary Member!
Posts: 1370
Joined: Tue Sep 04, 2007 10:32 pm
Location: ADL ex DRW, ASP, MGB

Re: News & Discussion: O-Bahn

Post by rubberman »

1NEEDS2POST wrote:
Tue Nov 10, 2020 10:12 pm
claybro wrote:
Sat Nov 07, 2020 9:40 pm
Trolley buses are used in so many locations in the world it is impossible to believe we could not build them here. The tech is old, cheap and reliable.
Yes, but not many places are building more trolleybus routes. Meanwhile, lots of places are buying battery electric buses. For example, Wellington shut down their trolleybus system in 2017 and now they are replacing their bus fleet with battery electric buses.
The shutdown in Wellington was a very dodgy affair. I wouldn't use that as an example of good economic management.

It really boils down to economics. Nobody can say which is better without hard figures in front of them. The problem is that nobody seems to want to do that. Rather, someone wants a particular outcome, and the actual costs don't matter as long as they get the outcome they want.
Post Reply