[U/C] M2 North-South Motorway

Threads relating to transport, water, etc. within the CBD and Metropolitan area.
Simmos083
Sen-Rookie-Sational
Posts: 11
Joined: Tue Jan 26, 2016 8:38 pm

[U/C] Re: M2 North-South Motorway

Post by Simmos083 »

Why would we want more buses on a motorway? There are trains down south which are much faster then a bus to get into the city. We want to get Adelaide moving not slow it down. Motor Ways are for cars, we don’t need more buses in Adelaide to clog up our road system.
User avatar
rev
SA MVP (Most Valued Poster 4000+)
Posts: 4704
Joined: Sat Nov 11, 2006 12:14 pm

[U/C] Re: M2 North-South Motorway

Post by rev »

Simmos083 wrote:
Wed Nov 18, 2020 6:49 am
Why would we want more buses on a motorway? There are trains down south which are much faster then a bus to get into the city. We want to get Adelaide moving not slow it down. Motor Ways are for cars, we don’t need more buses in Adelaide to clog up our road system.
It's not that bad of an idea. But it should be done with a dedicated & segregated bus lane in each direction with occasional bus stops.
For example a bus stop where it passes over Sheriffs road, there's room for a park and ride on the side just before the roundabout.
Same at Beach Road and the Reynella exit.

You couldn't eliminate all bus routes on other major roads, but you could take a decent amount off those roads.
The benefit there is that the maintenance and congestion on those roads would reduce.

But it would probably cost a few hundred million to do that now to the southern expressway.

The big question is, besides how much would it cost, how much time would it save people really to drive from surrounding areas to these park and ride facilities and get on a bus on the SEXY into the City, and what happens when they get off from the SEXY and onto the the rest of the NSM? I'd imagine it would be extremely difficult to widen the lowered motorway sections.

I've said this before, but there's poor planning in this state overall. The NC was meant to have a train line down the middle. Didn't happen.
Integrating public transport into a high speed non stop corridor is a good idea imo. Look at the northern areas, between Virginia, Munno Para West, and Burton. That triangle is going to filled with new suburbs in the coming decades. Tens of thousands of new residents. It's already starting to happen. Would have made perfect sense to lay a train line up there.
The NC and NEXY are good for now. But what's going to happen when those areas around them are filled with residential? Congestion. A freeway turned into a parking lot like we see in Melbourne and Sydney. Followed by at least a decade of talking about how to fix it.
ChillyPhilly
Super Size Scraper Poster!
Posts: 1850
Joined: Sun Dec 07, 2008 11:35 pm
Location: Adder-Laid, South Australia.
Contact:

[U/C] Re: [U/C] Re: M2 North-South Motorway

Post by ChillyPhilly »

Simmos083 wrote:Why would we want more buses on a motorway? There are trains down south which are much faster then a bus to get into the city. We want to get Adelaide moving not slow it down. Motor Ways are for cars, we don’t need more buses in Adelaide to clog up our road system.
Our road system is already clogged.

It's clogged because people don't use public transport enough.

Ironic, I know.

So big yes to creating routes that use faster roads.
Our state, our city, our future.

All views expressed on this forum are my own.
User avatar
rev
SA MVP (Most Valued Poster 4000+)
Posts: 4704
Joined: Sat Nov 11, 2006 12:14 pm

[U/C] Re: [U/C] Re: M2 North-South Motorway

Post by rev »

ChillyPhilly wrote:
Wed Nov 18, 2020 11:09 am
Simmos083 wrote:Why would we want more buses on a motorway? There are trains down south which are much faster then a bus to get into the city. We want to get Adelaide moving not slow it down. Motor Ways are for cars, we don’t need more buses in Adelaide to clog up our road system.
Our road system is already clogged.

It's clogged because people don't use public transport enough.

Ironic, I know.

So big yes to creating routes that use faster roads.
Its congested not only because there isn't more public transport usage, but because the network is poorly designed, even the light sequences are ridiculous in parts. You have lights that turn green, and lead you a short distance (less then 100m) right into a red light. Ridiculous. Or lights that are green ahead, you get a green light, and by the time you get there, they're red.

Public transport is even more piss poor. There's very little convenience in using it for the majority.
Why would I go out of my way to find a train station in the suburbs, most of which have inadequate parking facilities, and then get off say in the city, and have to walk long distances? Ok you can catch a tram up the spine of the city, and then walk slightly shorter distances.
This is why we need a tram loop through the city and an underground rail loop, and why suburban train stations need proper parking facilities, proper links with other public transport such as buses, or trams.
A whole network that spans the whole metro area, that loops around via multiple interconnected modes, trains, trams and buses.
claybro
Super Size Scraper Poster!
Posts: 2172
Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2012 9:16 pm

[U/C] Re: [U/C] Re: M2 North-South Motorway

Post by claybro »

rev wrote:
Wed Nov 18, 2020 12:34 pm
ChillyPhilly wrote:
Wed Nov 18, 2020 11:09 am
Simmos083 wrote:Why would we want more buses on a motorway? There are trains down south which are much faster then a bus to get into the city. We want to get Adelaide moving not slow it down. Motor Ways are for cars, we don’t need more buses in Adelaide to clog up our road system.
Our road system is already clogged.

It's clogged because people don't use public transport enough.

Ironic, I know.

So big yes to creating routes that use faster roads.
Its congested not only because there isn't more public transport usage, but because the network is poorly designed, even the light sequences are ridiculous in parts. You have lights that turn green, and lead you a short distance (less then 100m) right into a red light. Ridiculous. Or lights that are green ahead, you get a green light, and by the time you get there, they're red.

Public transport is even more piss poor. There's very little convenience in using it for the majority.
Why would I go out of my way to find a train station in the suburbs, most of which have inadequate parking facilities, and then get off say in the city, and have to walk long distances? Ok you can catch a tram up the spine of the city, and then walk slightly shorter distances.
This is why we need a tram loop through the city and an underground rail loop, and why suburban train stations need proper parking facilities, proper links with other public transport such as buses, or trams.
A whole network that spans the whole metro area, that loops around via multiple interconnected modes, trains, trams and buses.
Could not agree more. And funneling busses onto the mortorway is a lazy option, that completely overlooks an already existing rail spine. It will prevent further development of the rail system as is usually the Adelaide way, people will get used to plonking their arse on the bus all the way into the CBD-which clogs up the roads, even if a bus train connection was way quicker. Buses should feed into proper integrated train stations-with decent facilities like heated areas kiosks and security, with frequent trains taking commuters the rest of the journey.
SBD
Super Size Scraper Poster!
Posts: 1676
Joined: Thu Apr 03, 2014 3:49 pm
Location: Blakeview

[U/C] Re: M2 North-South Motorway

Post by SBD »

The "network" seems fine for commuters who live in the suburbs and work/study in the Adelaide CBD. I have no idea what percentage of the greater Adelaide population actually fits that description rather than working or studying in suburbs.

The cost/benefit of creating a bus-only lane on the N-S Corridor motorway would be poor. Buses operate on the Southeastern Freeway without a dedicated lane, although I think they are required to use the heavy vehicle lane down from Crafers to Glen Osmond the same as trucks. Southern Expressway does not have a dedicated heavy lane on the downhill?
User avatar
rev
SA MVP (Most Valued Poster 4000+)
Posts: 4704
Joined: Sat Nov 11, 2006 12:14 pm

[U/C] Re: M2 North-South Motorway

Post by rev »

SBD wrote:
Wed Nov 18, 2020 2:11 pm
The "network" seems fine for commuters who live in the suburbs and work/study in the Adelaide CBD. I have no idea what percentage of the greater Adelaide population actually fits that description rather than working or studying in suburbs.

The cost/benefit of creating a bus-only lane on the N-S Corridor motorway would be poor. Buses operate on the Southeastern Freeway without a dedicated lane, although I think they are required to use the heavy vehicle lane down from Crafers to Glen Osmond the same as trucks. Southern Expressway does not have a dedicated heavy lane on the downhill?
There were about 76 million passengers across all Adelaide Metro modes in 2019.
Melbournes PT network had a total 605 million passengers in 2019.
They have just under 4 times the population, but they have 8 times the public transport usage.
Simmos083
Sen-Rookie-Sational
Posts: 11
Joined: Tue Jan 26, 2016 8:38 pm

[U/C] Re: M2 North-South Motorway

Post by Simmos083 »

Buses are the issue, they are slow and clog up main roads around Adelaide and the CBD. More investment is needed into trains around Adelaide. Look at Melbourne, their train network is extensive. Yes there population is much higher then ours but a solid transport system of trains and road networks will help drive this city forward not buses.
bits
Legendary Member!
Posts: 688
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2014 9:24 pm

[U/C] Re: [U/C] Re: M2 North-South Motorway

Post by bits »


Simmos083 wrote:Buses are the issue, they are slow and clog up main roads around Adelaide and the CBD.
Melbourne also has an extensive tram network which runs mostly on the roads. Are they clogging up the roads but generating much of the PT usage?
Simmos083
Sen-Rookie-Sational
Posts: 11
Joined: Tue Jan 26, 2016 8:38 pm

[U/C] Re: [U/C] Re: M2 North-South Motorway

Post by Simmos083 »

bits wrote:
Thu Nov 19, 2020 7:13 am
Simmos083 wrote:Buses are the issue, they are slow and clog up main roads around Adelaide and the CBD.
Melbourne also has an extensive tram network which runs mostly on the roads. Are they clogging up the roads but generating much of the PT usage?
Tram network doesn’t run on their Freeways
User avatar
rhino
Super Size Scraper Poster!
Posts: 2970
Joined: Thu Sep 29, 2005 4:37 pm
Location: Nairne

[U/C] Re: [U/C] Re: M2 North-South Motorway

Post by rhino »

bits wrote:
Thu Nov 19, 2020 7:13 am
Simmos083 wrote:Buses are the issue, they are slow and clog up main roads around Adelaide and the CBD.
Melbourne also has an extensive tram network which runs mostly on the roads. Are they clogging up the roads but generating much of the PT usage?
An interesting question. Have you tried to drive in Melbourne? Trams are generating much of the PT usage precisely because they are clogging up the roads.

IMO, Melbourne's inner suburb tram system is outdated. It was good for it's time, but trams sharing the road with traffic is not the way to go. I know we haven't really gone for that scenario in Adelaide, and keep our trams generally in dedicated paths, and this is good. Public Transport is not the most convenient way to get from any place to any other place, and while I do use PT (a lot, because I work in the city when not from home), it should not disrupt traffic to the degree it does in Melbourne.
cheers,
Rhino
SBD
Super Size Scraper Poster!
Posts: 1676
Joined: Thu Apr 03, 2014 3:49 pm
Location: Blakeview

[U/C] Re: M2 North-South Motorway

Post by SBD »

rev wrote:
Wed Nov 18, 2020 11:47 pm
SBD wrote:
Wed Nov 18, 2020 2:11 pm
The "network" seems fine for commuters who live in the suburbs and work/study in the Adelaide CBD. I have no idea what percentage of the greater Adelaide population actually fits that description rather than working or studying in suburbs.

The cost/benefit of creating a bus-only lane on the N-S Corridor motorway would be poor. Buses operate on the Southeastern Freeway without a dedicated lane, although I think they are required to use the heavy vehicle lane down from Crafers to Glen Osmond the same as trucks. Southern Expressway does not have a dedicated heavy lane on the downhill?
There were about 76 million passengers across all Adelaide Metro modes in 2019.
Melbournes PT network had a total 605 million passengers in 2019.
They have just under 4 times the population, but they have 8 times the public transport usage.
So Melbourne has higher PT usage per population than Adelaide. Is that because the Melbourne PT network does a better job of transporting people between suburbs, or because a higher proportion of Melbourne suburb residents work/study in/near the CBD?

If it's the former, then we have to be prepared to accept a major shakeup and redesign of the network to make it possible to use it to get from where people are to where they want to be. Adoption will still take time, as people have already ordered their lives (such as owning cars) to deal with the current system.

If it's that proportionately more Melbourne people work in the city, then we have clearly a different structure of economy, and we get back to needing a PT system that supports our economy.
User avatar
rev
SA MVP (Most Valued Poster 4000+)
Posts: 4704
Joined: Sat Nov 11, 2006 12:14 pm

[U/C] Re: M2 North-South Motorway

Post by rev »

SBD wrote:
Thu Nov 19, 2020 9:28 am
rev wrote:
Wed Nov 18, 2020 11:47 pm
SBD wrote:
Wed Nov 18, 2020 2:11 pm
The "network" seems fine for commuters who live in the suburbs and work/study in the Adelaide CBD. I have no idea what percentage of the greater Adelaide population actually fits that description rather than working or studying in suburbs.

The cost/benefit of creating a bus-only lane on the N-S Corridor motorway would be poor. Buses operate on the Southeastern Freeway without a dedicated lane, although I think they are required to use the heavy vehicle lane down from Crafers to Glen Osmond the same as trucks. Southern Expressway does not have a dedicated heavy lane on the downhill?
There were about 76 million passengers across all Adelaide Metro modes in 2019.
Melbournes PT network had a total 605 million passengers in 2019.
They have just under 4 times the population, but they have 8 times the public transport usage.
So Melbourne has higher PT usage per population than Adelaide. Is that because the Melbourne PT network does a better job of transporting people between suburbs, or because a higher proportion of Melbourne suburb residents work/study in/near the CBD?
Don't know. Google it and let us know.
If it's the former, then we have to be prepared to accept a major shakeup and redesign of the network to make it possible to use it to get from where people are to where they want to be. Adoption will still take time, as people have already ordered their lives (such as owning cars) to deal with the current system.

If it's that proportionately more Melbourne people work in the city, then we have clearly a different structure of economy, and we get back to needing a PT system that supports our economy.
It's not that hard. Adelaide is predominantly a north-south city. It doesn't spread very far east or west of the cbd.
We may miss the boat on a second northern line with regards to the new housing that will go up in that triangle I mentioned over the next few decades. Tens of thousands will call that area home, it needs to have public transport links like a train line. Not just buses and a nice big freeway.

Building the much talked about tram loop through the city, and the wider tram network into the suburbs, and the underground rail in the city, and making sure that they are as interconnected as possible, will see a rise in public transport usage because doing that will make using PT convenient and logical for many more people on a daily basis.

I only mentioned Melbourne to illustrate how substandard our networks are. We really shouldn't compare to Melbourne on PT issues because just the investments and developments that are in the works there and in the pipeline over the next decade or three, blow our entire pt network out of the water.
User avatar
rhino
Super Size Scraper Poster!
Posts: 2970
Joined: Thu Sep 29, 2005 4:37 pm
Location: Nairne

[U/C] Re: M2 North-South Motorway

Post by rhino »

rev wrote:
Thu Nov 19, 2020 11:07 am
…. just the investments and developments that are in the works there and in the pipeline over the next decade or three, blow our entire pt network out of the water.
A fine example of building for future needs, rather than playing catch-up to meet today's needs. This has been an Adelaide problem for successive governments, pretty much since the MATS plan was shelved. Unfortunately, it went from the shelf to the dustbin, or we may be some way further along by now.
cheers,
Rhino
SBD
Super Size Scraper Poster!
Posts: 1676
Joined: Thu Apr 03, 2014 3:49 pm
Location: Blakeview

[U/C] Re: M2 North-South Motorway

Post by SBD »

rev wrote:
Thu Nov 19, 2020 11:07 am
SBD wrote:
Thu Nov 19, 2020 9:28 am
rev wrote:
Wed Nov 18, 2020 11:47 pm


There were about 76 million passengers across all Adelaide Metro modes in 2019.
Melbournes PT network had a total 605 million passengers in 2019.
They have just under 4 times the population, but they have 8 times the public transport usage.
So Melbourne has higher PT usage per population than Adelaide. Is that because the Melbourne PT network does a better job of transporting people between suburbs, or because a higher proportion of Melbourne suburb residents work/study in/near the CBD?
Don't know. Google it and let us know.
If it's the former, then we have to be prepared to accept a major shakeup and redesign of the network to make it possible to use it to get from where people are to where they want to be. Adoption will still take time, as people have already ordered their lives (such as owning cars) to deal with the current system.

If it's that proportionately more Melbourne people work in the city, then we have clearly a different structure of economy, and we get back to needing a PT system that supports our economy.
It's not that hard. Adelaide is predominantly a north-south city. It doesn't spread very far east or west of the cbd.
We may miss the boat on a second northern line with regards to the new housing that will go up in that triangle I mentioned over the next few decades. Tens of thousands will call that area home, it needs to have public transport links like a train line. Not just buses and a nice big freeway.

Building the much talked about tram loop through the city, and the wider tram network into the suburbs, and the underground rail in the city, and making sure that they are as interconnected as possible, will see a rise in public transport usage because doing that will make using PT convenient and logical for many more people on a daily basis.

I only mentioned Melbourne to illustrate how substandard our networks are. We really shouldn't compare to Melbourne on PT issues because just the investments and developments that are in the works there and in the pipeline over the next decade or three, blow our entire pt network out of the water.
I'd have already Googled it if I knew how to ask to get sensible answers.

Adelaide used to have an east-west railway link between Dry Creek and Rosewater. Maybe a service linking Mawson Lakes to Osborne would get patronage as the frigate and submarine construction ramp up. I imagine it is very slow to get people to change from cars to trains, but might be quicker if they are starting from scratch.

Adding trains from Virginia to Adelaide will encourage people to live there and commute to Adelaide. No train might mean the area is populated by people who work more locally (eg the new Angle Vale School, Penfield industrial area, Virginia market gardens and packing sheds) or further north (Dublin markets, Port Wakefield abattoir) while still convenient to Adelaide when they need to be.
Post Reply