News & Discussion: Regional Transport

Threads relating to transport, water, etc. within the CBD and Metropolitan area.
dbl96
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Re: News & Discussion: Regional Transport

Post by dbl96 »

PeFe wrote:
Sun Dec 29, 2019 12:05 am
OMG !.......flogging a dead horse......when will the economic reality of the Overland service sink in with some people....

It will eventually die........and the few remaining will passengers will use buses in South Australia, and in Victoria buses to the nearest V-Line train station.
The reason the Overland is not economically viable is not because an Adelaide-Mebourne passenger service is inherently unviable, it is because of GSR's business model. The train is run essentially as a tourist service rather than a transport service. The train is too infrequent to be considered by many as a viable transport option. Also, as others have pointed out, tickets are priced at a point which is too expensive to compete with the bus (most bus passengers are travelling on concession tickets priced at around $30), while journey times are too slow to compete with flights (flights are priced at around the same, or even less than the train tickets). As a result, very few people choose to take the train.

The cynic in me thinks GSR does this deliberately so that they can continue to collect subsidies from the government.

An Adelaide-Melbourne train service should be viable. Adelaide-Melbourne is an extremely busy air and road corridor, with large numbers of people travelling between the two cities every day. Although there are slow sections in the Adelaide Hills, and standard gauge trains have to detour through Geelong, the majority of the line would permit significantly higher speeds if different trains were used. The economies associated with full trains should allow for an economy service with ticket prices lower than the bus concession rate.

The service should just be run directly by VLine, which has a demonstrated capacity to deliver popular and viable rail passenger transport services at an affordable price. The ARTC line would already permit VLocity trains to run at 130kmph for most of the the route, potentially resulting in a journey time of just 6 hours. A no-frills cheap economy class could be offered, as well as a premium service for those who wish to pay. The smaller capacity of VLocity trains would make them easier to fill than the Overland, and this could allow for a greater frequency of service - something which is likely to attract a lot more people to use the train. With the correct pricing, along with increased frequency and speed, the train could attract significant numbers of people away from driving, catching the bus, or taking budget flights on the Adelaide-Melbourne corridor.
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SRW
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Re: News & Discussion: Regional Transport

Post by SRW »

I, and probably many others, would prefer to take the train if it took much less time than driving and cost less than flying. That neither of these things are true is a fatal but avoidable flaw.

In addition to letting V/Line run the service with better locomotives, if the line between Ballarat and Melbourne were standardised, would a return to this route allow travel time to lower to as little as 5-6 hours? That compares favourably to driving. And if a southern option alignment for the Adelaide Hills is ever pursued, which it ought to be in the medium term, surely 5 hours looks even more realistic?
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Re: News & Discussion: Regional Transport

Post by Eurostar »

dbl96 wrote:
Fri Feb 21, 2020 10:27 pm
PeFe wrote:
Sun Dec 29, 2019 12:05 am
OMG !.......flogging a dead horse......when will the economic reality of the Overland service sink in with some people....

It will eventually die........and the few remaining will passengers will use buses in South Australia, and in Victoria buses to the nearest V-Line train station.
The reason the Overland is not economically viable is not because an Adelaide-Mebourne passenger service is inherently unviable, it is because of GSR's business model. The train is run essentially as a tourist service rather than a transport service. The train is too infrequent to be considered by many as a viable transport option. Also, as others have pointed out, tickets are priced at a point which is too expensive to compete with the bus (most bus passengers are travelling on concession tickets priced at around $30), while journey times are too slow to compete with flights (flights are priced at around the same, or even less than the train tickets). As a result, very few people choose to take the train.

The cynic in me thinks GSR does this deliberately so that they can continue to collect subsidies from the government.

An Adelaide-Melbourne train service should be viable. Adelaide-Melbourne is an extremely busy air and road corridor, with large numbers of people travelling between the two cities every day. Although there are slow sections in the Adelaide Hills, and standard gauge trains have to detour through Geelong, the majority of the line would permit significantly higher speeds if different trains were used. The economies associated with full trains should allow for an economy service with ticket prices lower than the bus concession rate.

The service should just be run directly by VLine, which has a demonstrated capacity to deliver popular and viable rail passenger transport services at an affordable price. The ARTC line would already permit VLocity trains to run at 130kmph for most of the the route, potentially resulting in a journey time of just 6 hours. A no-frills cheap economy class could be offered, as well as a premium service for those who wish to pay. The smaller capacity of VLocity trains would make them easier to fill than the Overland, and this could allow for a greater frequency of service - something which is likely to attract a lot more people to use the train. With the correct pricing, along with increased frequency and speed, the train could attract significant numbers of people away from driving, catching the bus, or taking budget flights on the Adelaide-Melbourne corridor.
If I recall correctly the locomotive used on The Overland is leased from Pacific National rather than both states just owning one. A standard gauge Velocity should be bought and the service needs to go back to being run daily overnight, I'd say buy secondhand Xplorer but I don't think there is any spares.
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Re: News & Discussion: Regional Transport

Post by claybro »

Agree with all of this. Smaller, lighter, faster.. the Vlocity trains use less fuel, could run daily.. and be faster than and beat a bus if run properly. Lugging vintage carriages, hundreds of metres long, by equally vintage diesel locos is such a 1950's concept, it is no wonder why it is not viable. The more frequent trains could also be marketed to football fans with special ticket deals and sensible scheduling. For that matter.. regional trains from the Spencer Gulf cities into Adelaide station could also be viable for footy fans. Passenger rail should be as equally subsidised as regional buses, which do not adequately pay for their "slot" on public roads, so while on face value it appears cheaper to run buses, in the long run, the taxpayer ends up paying through road maintenance anyway.
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Re: News & Discussion: Regional Transport

Post by eKwatee »

The Penola Northern Bypass is now open to traffic.

The Penola Northern Bypass will have a posted speed of 60km/h to enable driver familiarisation, & to enable remaining works to continue safely, with full completion expected mid-year

https://www.dpti.sa.gov.au/infrastructu ... nolabypass
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Re: News & Discussion: Regional Transport

Post by Bob »

Looks like the battle to preserve the rail corridor between Tanunda and Nuriootpa has been lost.

Having previously lost the line from Nuriootpa to Angaston, and the other branch line from Lights Pass to Truro years before that, and as Penrice Quarry hasn't rail stoned to Port Adelaide in recent years no part of the line has been used and has been left to rack and ruin. This latest line removal will leave the rail corridor only in place from Gawler Central to Tanunda. Actually 120 metres of the line will be removed for the new roundabout to be built at Kromers Crossing, effectively severing that section of the rail corridor forever.

The best we could hope for now is saving the rail corridor to Tanunda. It could be upgraded and used for a regional express wine train / tourism train - direct link daily service of some sort. And upgrade Tanunda as a transport hub with mini tour bus shuttles from the train.

Its a tragedy, the premium wine region of Australia and successive SA Governments don't give it enough credit or love.

Imagine an express from ARS to Tanunda everyday, imagine the tourism benefits from day trippers to longer stays. Easy for larger volumes of people to access.

If the Barossa was in Victoria this would have happened years ago, and we would have tourism ads jammed down our throats telling us all how good it is...
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Re: News & Discussion: Regional Transport

Post by SRW »

Bob wrote:
Wed Apr 22, 2020 8:43 am
Looks like the battle to preserve the rail corridor between Tanunda and Nuriootpa has been lost.

Having previously lost the line from Nuriootpa to Angaston, and the other branch line from Lights Pass to Truro years before that, and as Penrice Quarry hasn't rail stoned to Port Adelaide in recent years no part of the line has been used and has been left to rack and ruin. This latest line removal will leave the rail corridor only in place from Gawler Central to Tanunda. Actually 120 metres of the line will be removed for the new roundabout to be built at Kromers Crossing, effectively severing that section of the rail corridor forever.

The best we could hope for now is saving the rail corridor to Tanunda. It could be upgraded and used for a regional express wine train / tourism train - direct link daily service of some sort. And upgrade Tanunda as a transport hub with mini tour bus shuttles from the train.

Its a tragedy, the premium wine region of Australia and successive SA Governments don't give it enough credit or love.

Imagine an express from ARS to Tanunda everyday, imagine the tourism benefits from day trippers to longer stays. Easy for larger volumes of people to access.

If the Barossa was in Victoria this would have happened years ago, and we would have tourism ads jammed down our throats telling us all how good it is...
Outrageous.

It's worth noting too that the minister for infrastructure is also the member representing the Barossa. I hope he gets his comeuppance.
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Re: News & Discussion: Regional Transport

Post by how good is he »

I don't know the road or the area well enough but is there any reason why this big new roundabout and a rail corridor couldn't still work?
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Re: News & Discussion: Regional Transport

Post by PD2/20 »

how good is he wrote:
Wed Apr 22, 2020 10:54 am
I don't know the road or the area well enough but is any reason why this big new roundabout and a rail corridor couldn't still work?
The Barossa Valley Way runs parallel to the railway and at present doglegs across a level crossing. There are 3 side roads immediately adjacent to the crossing. The rail line would cut across the middle of the proposed roundabout.
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Re: News & Discussion: Regional Transport

Post by OlympusAnt »

Another step backwards for rail in this state. The last hope for some regional rail to return has now been lost.

Mount Barker won't happen either. It is simply too slow to get over the Hills. They could do with express buses instead, only stopping at the Crafers park and ride.
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Re: News & Discussion: Regional Transport

Post by Spotto »

OlympusAnt wrote:
Wed Apr 22, 2020 11:47 am
Another step backwards for rail in this state. The last hope for some regional rail to return has now been lost.

Mount Barker won't happen either. It is simply too slow to get over the Hills. They could do with express buses instead, only stopping at the Crafers park and ride.
Mount Barker won't ever happen without HUGE investment to reroute the railway along a more direct route and away from Blackwood and Belair. The current route is too circuitous and curvy to provide any service with a competitive timetable. It's wishful thinking due to how hideously complex and expensive such a project would be, but there's going to come a time when buses won't be enough and we'll need it.
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Re: News & Discussion: Regional Transport

Post by OlympusAnt »

Buses can work, just need lots of them
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Re: News & Discussion: Regional Transport

Post by SBD »

Bob wrote:
Wed Apr 22, 2020 8:43 am
Looks like the battle to preserve the rail corridor between Tanunda and Nuriootpa has been lost.

Having previously lost the line from Nuriootpa to Angaston, and the other branch line from Lights Pass to Truro years before that, and as Penrice Quarry hasn't rail stoned to Port Adelaide in recent years no part of the line has been used and has been left to rack and ruin. This latest line removal will leave the rail corridor only in place from Gawler Central to Tanunda. Actually 120 metres of the line will be removed for the new roundabout to be built at Kromers Crossing, effectively severing that section of the rail corridor forever.

The best we could hope for now is saving the rail corridor to Tanunda. It could be upgraded and used for a regional express wine train / tourism train - direct link daily service of some sort. And upgrade Tanunda as a transport hub with mini tour bus shuttles from the train.

Its a tragedy, the premium wine region of Australia and successive SA Governments don't give it enough credit or love.

Imagine an express from ARS to Tanunda everyday, imagine the tourism benefits from day trippers to longer stays. Easy for larger volumes of people to access.

If the Barossa was in Victoria this would have happened years ago, and we would have tourism ads jammed down our throats telling us all how good it is...
Which Victorian wine regions have tourist trains from Melbourne? There are isolated tourist railways on Mornington Peninsula and Yarra Valley, but not connected to Melbourne.

Other wine regions have closed railway lines, some converted to bike tracks like Nuriootpa-Angaston, Riverton-Clare, Balhannah-Mount Torrens and Seaford-WIllunga.

Really, there could be a tourist market in linking up the gaps and marketing a continuous off-road cycling tour from Willunga-Clare. Sell it right and you get Adelaide Hills, McLaren Vale, Adelaide Plains, Mount Lofty Ranges, Barossa Valley and Clare Valley wine, food and scenery regions.
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Re: News & Discussion: Regional Transport

Post by Bob »

SBD wrote:
Wed Apr 22, 2020 10:00 pm
Bob wrote:
Wed Apr 22, 2020 8:43 am
Looks like the battle to preserve the rail corridor between Tanunda and Nuriootpa has been lost.

Having previously lost the line from Nuriootpa to Angaston, and the other branch line from Lights Pass to Truro years before that, and as Penrice Quarry hasn't rail stoned to Port Adelaide in recent years no part of the line has been used and has been left to rack and ruin. This latest line removal will leave the rail corridor only in place from Gawler Central to Tanunda. Actually 120 metres of the line will be removed for the new roundabout to be built at Kromers Crossing, effectively severing that section of the rail corridor forever.

The best we could hope for now is saving the rail corridor to Tanunda. It could be upgraded and used for a regional express wine train / tourism train - direct link daily service of some sort. And upgrade Tanunda as a transport hub with mini tour bus shuttles from the train.

Its a tragedy, the premium wine region of Australia and successive SA Governments don't give it enough credit or love.

Imagine an express from ARS to Tanunda everyday, imagine the tourism benefits from day trippers to longer stays. Easy for larger volumes of people to access.

If the Barossa was in Victoria this would have happened years ago, and we would have tourism ads jammed down our throats telling us all how good it is...
Which Victorian wine regions have tourist trains from Melbourne? There are isolated tourist railways on Mornington Peninsula and Yarra Valley, but not connected to Melbourne.

Other wine regions have closed railway lines, some converted to bike tracks like Nuriootpa-Angaston, Riverton-Clare, Balhannah-Mount Torrens and Seaford-WIllunga.

Really, there could be a tourist market in linking up the gaps and marketing a continuous off-road cycling tour from Willunga-Clare. Sell it right and you get Adelaide Hills, McLaren Vale, Adelaide Plains, Mount Lofty Ranges, Barossa Valley and Clare Valley wine, food and scenery regions.
My point has been missed.

Adelaide, South Australia is one of the Great Wine Capitals of the world – officially. No other location in Australia is in that club.

Most of the premium wine produced in Australia is from here, and the Barossa is key to that in addition to being the premier wine region of Australia, comparing Yarra Valley or Mornington Peninsula to it is like comparing a Rolls Royce to a Toyota.

My point is this – if Victoria had the same wine credentials and it had the Barossa as its pivotal link in that location with an existing rail line, they would leverage that scenario to its fullest.

This is constantly where SA misses the mark, and this is another example.

If SA does not exploit the few uniqueness’s it has on the global stage to attract international tourism, it will continue to be left further and further behind. Very frustrating.

P.S. I do agree with your cycle trail suggestion for a broader vision of connecting wine regions, however in this case a cycle track already exists between Gawler and Tanunda, so we don't need to replace this particular rail line with another cycle path.
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Norman
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Re: News & Discussion: Regional Transport

Post by Norman »

I'm not sure how that tourist train to the Barossa world work though. There would still need to be buses transporting the people from the train stations to the wineries. I think most tourists would prefer to go winery to winery on a tour bus as they do now. I doubt the cost to operate the train world provide many more benefits.
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