News & Discussion: Regional Transport

Threads relating to transport, water, etc. within the CBD and Metropolitan area.
Will
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Re: News & Discussion: Regional Transport

Post by Will »

Norman wrote:
Thu Apr 23, 2020 12:26 pm
I'm not sure how that tourist train to the Barossa world work though. There would still need to be buses transporting the people from the train stations to the wineries. I think most tourists would prefer to go winery to winery on a tour bus as they do now. I doubt the cost to operate the train world provide many more benefits.
This.

I know some people on here are train enthusiasts longing for a return to the glory days of rail, but in reality, why would any tourist travel to a wine region like the Barossa on a train? It would dump them at Nuriootpa or Tanunda, and then what? They would then need to get on a bus or hire a car to get around....
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Re: News & Discussion: Regional Transport

Post by Bob »

Norman wrote:
Thu Apr 23, 2020 12:26 pm
I'm not sure how that tourist train to the Barossa world work though. There would still need to be buses transporting the people from the train stations to the wineries. I think most tourists would prefer to go winery to winery on a tour bus as they do now. I doubt the cost to operate the train world provide many more benefits.
In this vision there would only be one railway station – Tanunda.


Tanunda could be upgraded into a transport & destination hub. It is the main historic township of the valley; it does have Chateau Tanunda next to the station and the ICC approved cricket oval on the grounds.


Additionally, mini buses could be used as shuttles from Tanunda station, and people would be able to select what tour experience they want – as an example one day tour might be a six hour session that greets you at the station when the train arrives at 1030 for a brief walk to Chateau Tanunda (Tanunda) for a late morning visit , then bus to Chateau Yalumba (Angaston) for lunch, a wine making experience at Penfolds (Nuriootpa), afternoon visit to Seppeltsfield, then back to Tanunda to catch the train at 1630 for a relaxing express ride to be dropped back in the city. There are numerous options. Having been on many express trains across the world, there are many like me that prefer proper train travel to a worthwhile destination and then use local transport options to sample the delights, it feels like you have arrived somewhere of note.


Without going too deep on this topic, the main issue right now should be to preserve the remaining rail corridor from Gawler Central to Tanunda until further notice, and not allowing a short sighted government remove any more of it as it might come back to bite in the long term. There may be additional uses as a railway not yet determined. Minister Knoll right now is seeking interest from parties who may want to use the remaining corridor for other purposes.


When taking the cost of providing a potential rail service the entire scope should be considered and any add on value.
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Re: News & Discussion: Regional Transport

Post by Spotto »

Norman wrote:
Thu Apr 23, 2020 12:26 pm
I'm not sure how that tourist train to the Barossa world work though. There would still need to be buses transporting the people from the train stations to the wineries. I think most tourists would prefer to go winery to winery on a tour bus as they do now. I doubt the cost to operate the train world provide many more benefits.
An normal AdMet train from Gawler stopping Lyndoch and Tanunda (preferably Nuriootpa as well but that's another discussion) timetabled to sync with the mainline Gawler train would be the much needed gateway into the Barossa. The train stations then become local hubs where Minister Knoll's on-demand buses take over transporting people to the wineries or wherever they need to go. Wine tour buses could also pick up passengers from the stations. The reverse also benefits Barossa locals who might need to get to Adelaide or the suburbs: drive/bus to their nearest train station then change from the diesel shuttle to the electric mainline at Gawler. Barossa locals win with a regular commuter train, Adelaide residents who fancy a day out in the Barossa can just hop on a train, interstate/overseas tourists win because it's easier and cheaper to get to the Barossa, local business wins because all these new people are now coming into the Barossa.

The infrastructure to disperse people within the Barossa is there, but until there's a solid method of getting people into the Barossa to then use Minister Knoll's buses to their full potential it's a half-baked idea. Rail is that critical link. Flash back to when West Lakes was being developed; imagine if they'd built houses and roads on Delfin Island before West Lakes Boulevard actually connected it to the mainland.
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Re: News & Discussion: Regional Transport

Post by Norman »

Bob wrote:
Thu Apr 23, 2020 1:19 pm
In this vision there would only be one railway station – Tanunda.

Tanunda could be upgraded into a transport & destination hub. It is the main historic township of the valley; it does have Chateau Tanunda next to the station and the ICC approved cricket oval on the grounds.
To be honest, I've never heard of Chateau Tanunda. I'm not sure interstate and international tourists do either. I'm sure it's a good winery, but I'm also sure the tourists would be more interested in the larger wineries such as Jacobs Creek, Seppelsfield, etc.

Not too sure why tourists would want to visit the Barossa to go to a cricket ground.
Bob wrote:
Thu Apr 23, 2020 1:19 pm
Additionally, mini buses could be used as shuttles from Tanunda station, and people would be able to select what tour experience they want – as an example one day tour might be a six hour session that greets you at the station when the train arrives at 1030 for a brief walk to Chateau Tanunda (Tanunda) for a late morning visit , then bus to Chateau Yalumba (Angaston) for lunch, a wine making experience at Penfolds (Nuriootpa), afternoon visit to Seppeltsfield, then back to Tanunda to catch the train at 1630 for a relaxing express ride to be dropped back in the city. There are numerous options. Having been on many express trains across the world, there are many like me that prefer proper train travel to a worthwhile destination and then use local transport options to sample the delights, it feels like you have arrived somewhere of note.
Tour operators don't work on an ad-hoc basis. They are planned at least a day in advance. If there is only one train per day, that severely limits the time that people can stay in the Barossa before having to rush back to the train station. It also means that tour operators have no flexibility as to when they can start and finish their tour.

Interstate travellers go to the Barossa in three ways... by hire car they picked up at the airport, by car with friends that live in Adelaide or by an organised tour (possibly even a guided tour in their language if they are from overseas).
Spotto wrote:
Thu Apr 23, 2020 2:46 pm
An normal AdMet train from Gawler stopping Lyndoch and Tanunda (preferably Nuriootpa as well but that's another discussion) timetabled to sync with the mainline Gawler train would be the much needed gateway into the Barossa. The train stations then become local hubs where Minister Knoll's on-demand buses take over transporting people to the wineries or wherever they need to go. Wine tour buses could also pick up passengers from the stations. The reverse also benefits Barossa locals who might need to get to Adelaide or the suburbs: drive/bus to their nearest train station then change from the diesel shuttle to the electric mainline at Gawler. Barossa locals win with a regular commuter train, Adelaide residents who fancy a day out in the Barossa can just hop on a train, interstate/overseas tourists win because it's easier and cheaper to get to the Barossa, local business wins because all these new people are now coming into the Barossa.
So on this plan tourists would have to catch 2 trains and an on-demand bus, which could take anwhere between 10 and 45 minutes to turn up to the station or the winery. That is a lot of time spent waiting and connecting between services when they could have it all direct from their hotel to the wineries... no waiting, no connections.

Secondly, there are 12,000 workers that live in the Barossa Valley. 6,500 of those work in the Barossa Valley, 800 in the Light LGA and 500 in Gawler. Only 280 work in Adelaide, 430 in Salisbury, 430 in Playford, 370 in Port Adelaide Enfield and 90 in Charles Sturt. Even if 10% of that population catches the train, that's 160 people. The Barossa is not a commuting suburb, and it is not expected to grow much due to strict development controls (as it should be).
Spotto wrote:
Thu Apr 23, 2020 2:46 pm
The infrastructure to disperse people within the Barossa is there, but until there's a solid method of getting people into the Barossa to then use Minister Knoll's buses to their full potential it's a half-baked idea. Rail is that critical link. Flash back to when West Lakes was being developed; imagine if they'd built houses and roads on Delfin Island before West Lakes Boulevard actually connected it to the mainland.
You can't compare West Lakes the the Barossa Valley. West Lakes has a much denser population, a major shopping centre and is part of the commuter pool of Adelaide.
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Re: News & Discussion: Regional Transport

Post by SBD »

I agree with Norman. Adding a commuter rail service tells people (residents and potential residents) that the government expects them to commute out of the area. The net effect is that it would remove the intangible things that make tourists want to go there in the first place. At the moment, I personally know more people who commute into the Barossa Valley than I do people who commute out of it.

I have driven through many wine regions in several countries. I have used organised tours to a few as well, with the day's bus picking us up from our hotel. I have cycled to wineries in the Clare (Riesling Trail), Adelaide Hills (Amy Gillett Trail) and Barossa (Barossa Trail (previously Jack Bobridge)) regions. I have walked between a cluster of six cellar doors in Coonawarra. That route could start and finish from Coonawarra railway station, but I don't think I'd get the same thrill of walking through the vineyards from Tanunda Station - maybe it would work along the Barossa Trail from Nuriootpa Station to Angaston Station (it does on bikes, and wouldn't if the railway was still there).
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Re: News & Discussion: Regional Transport

Post by Eurostar »

A bus service running at least hourly between Gawler and Nuriootpa via Lyndoch and Tanunda i think could work just as well.

In Sydney one can use Opal card to travel as far as Blue Mountains, Wollongong and Newcastle, I dont see why Barossa couldnt be included in Metroticket fare zone.
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Re: News & Discussion: Regional Transport

Post by PeFe »

Eurostar wrote:
Fri Apr 24, 2020 2:19 am
A bus service running at least hourly between Gawler and Nuriootpa via Lyndoch and Tanunda i think could work just as well.

In Sydney one can use Opal card to travel as far as Blue Mountains, Wollongong and Newcastle, I dont see why Barossa couldnt be included in Metroticket fare zone.
The NSW Opal card uses a fare band system, the further you travel the more you pay. Adelaide metro is one flat fare, great if you live in the outer suburbs (cheapest public transport in metropolitan Australia) but not so great if you are travelling a short distance.

I really don't think there there is an economic argument for extending Adelaide Metro buses any further out. Sure lets have some regular private bus services so people within 100 km of Adelaide can get into town.
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Re: News & Discussion: Regional Transport

Post by Spotto »

I don't think anyone was expecting anything more than this and I know it's common practice, but the One Rail Australia website has a mockup of one of their freight trains and the "new" livery is the same GWA livery just with the logos painted over.

(I wouldn't be surprised if there's still some locos in the old AN green and gold floating around on current operations)

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Re: News & Discussion: Regional Transport

Post by SBD »

Eurostar wrote:
Fri Apr 24, 2020 2:19 am
A bus service running at least hourly between Gawler and Nuriootpa via Lyndoch and Tanunda i think could work just as well.

In Sydney one can use Opal card to travel as far as Blue Mountains, Wollongong and Newcastle, I dont see why Barossa couldnt be included in Metroticket fare zone.
Sydney Trains only operates as far as Emu Plains, which is west of the Nepean River, but in the City of Penrith. Further west is NSW TrainLink.

You could argue similarly that Adelaide Metro services the Barossa Valley and Mid North as the 906 on-demand service covers Concordia and Kalbeeba (Barossa Council) and Hewett and Roseworthy ( Light Regional Council).

Do the Adelaide Hills and beyond routes 83x 84x 850x use Adelaide Metrocards? Are they the same fare as for inner suburbs?
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Re: News & Discussion: Regional Transport

Post by Eurostar »

SBD wrote:
Sat Apr 25, 2020 2:05 pm
Eurostar wrote:
Fri Apr 24, 2020 2:19 am
A bus service running at least hourly between Gawler and Nuriootpa via Lyndoch and Tanunda i think could work just as well.

In Sydney one can use Opal card to travel as far as Blue Mountains, Wollongong and Newcastle, I dont see why Barossa couldnt be included in Metroticket fare zone.
Sydney Trains only operates as far as Emu Plains, which is west of the Nepean River, but in the City of Penrith. Further west is NSW TrainLink.

You could argue similarly that Adelaide Metro services the Barossa Valley and Mid North as the 906 on-demand service covers Concordia and Kalbeeba (Barossa Council) and Hewett and Roseworthy ( Light Regional Council).

Do the Adelaide Hills and beyond routes 83x 84x 850x use Adelaide Metrocards? Are they the same fare as for inner suburbs?
From Opal site:

Opal can be used to pay for travel on public transport including metro, trains, buses, ferries and light rail in Sydney, the Blue Mountains, Central Coast, the Hunter and the Illawarra
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Re: News & Discussion: Regional Transport

Post by Norman »

SBD wrote:
Sat Apr 25, 2020 2:05 pm
Eurostar wrote:
Fri Apr 24, 2020 2:19 am
A bus service running at least hourly between Gawler and Nuriootpa via Lyndoch and Tanunda i think could work just as well.

In Sydney one can use Opal card to travel as far as Blue Mountains, Wollongong and Newcastle, I dont see why Barossa couldnt be included in Metroticket fare zone.
Sydney Trains only operates as far as Emu Plains, which is west of the Nepean River, but in the City of Penrith. Further west is NSW TrainLink.

You could argue similarly that Adelaide Metro services the Barossa Valley and Mid North as the 906 on-demand service covers Concordia and Kalbeeba (Barossa Council) and Hewett and Roseworthy ( Light Regional Council).

Do the Adelaide Hills and beyond routes 83x 84x 850x use Adelaide Metrocards? Are they the same fare as for inner suburbs?
Special contry fares apply outside Mount Barker, which can be purchased on board. There are also special country multitrip tickets available.
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Re: News & Discussion: Regional Transport

Post by Bob »

Norman wrote:
Thu Apr 23, 2020 4:04 pm
Bob wrote:
Thu Apr 23, 2020 1:19 pm
In this vision there would only be one railway station – Tanunda.

Tanunda could be upgraded into a transport & destination hub. It is the main historic township of the valley; it does have Chateau Tanunda next to the station and the ICC approved cricket oval on the grounds.
To be honest, I've never heard of Chateau Tanunda. I'm not sure interstate and international tourists do either. I'm sure it's a good winery, but I'm also sure the tourists would be more interested in the larger wineries such as Jacobs Creek, Seppelsfield, etc.

Not too sure why tourists would want to visit the Barossa to go to a cricket ground.
Bob wrote:
Thu Apr 23, 2020 1:19 pm
Additionally, mini buses could be used as shuttles from Tanunda station, and people would be able to select what tour experience they want – as an example one day tour might be a six hour session that greets you at the station when the train arrives at 1030 for a brief walk to Chateau Tanunda (Tanunda) for a late morning visit , then bus to Chateau Yalumba (Angaston) for lunch, a wine making experience at Penfolds (Nuriootpa), afternoon visit to Seppeltsfield, then back to Tanunda to catch the train at 1630 for a relaxing express ride to be dropped back in the city. There are numerous options. Having been on many express trains across the world, there are many like me that prefer proper train travel to a worthwhile destination and then use local transport options to sample the delights, it feels like you have arrived somewhere of note.
Tour operators don't work on an ad-hoc basis. They are planned at least a day in advance. If there is only one train per day, that severely limits the time that people can stay in the Barossa before having to rush back to the train station. It also means that tour operators have no flexibility as to when they can start and finish their tour.

Interstate travellers go to the Barossa in three ways... by hire car they picked up at the airport, by car with friends that live in Adelaide or by an organised tour (possibly even a guided tour in their language if they are from overseas).
Spotto wrote:
Thu Apr 23, 2020 2:46 pm
An normal AdMet train from Gawler stopping Lyndoch and Tanunda (preferably Nuriootpa as well but that's another discussion) timetabled to sync with the mainline Gawler train would be the much needed gateway into the Barossa. The train stations then become local hubs where Minister Knoll's on-demand buses take over transporting people to the wineries or wherever they need to go. Wine tour buses could also pick up passengers from the stations. The reverse also benefits Barossa locals who might need to get to Adelaide or the suburbs: drive/bus to their nearest train station then change from the diesel shuttle to the electric mainline at Gawler. Barossa locals win with a regular commuter train, Adelaide residents who fancy a day out in the Barossa can just hop on a train, interstate/overseas tourists win because it's easier and cheaper to get to the Barossa, local business wins because all these new people are now coming into the Barossa.
So on this plan tourists would have to catch 2 trains and an on-demand bus, which could take anwhere between 10 and 45 minutes to turn up to the station or the winery. That is a lot of time spent waiting and connecting between services when they could have it all direct from their hotel to the wineries... no waiting, no connections.

Secondly, there are 12,000 workers that live in the Barossa Valley. 6,500 of those work in the Barossa Valley, 800 in the Light LGA and 500 in Gawler. Only 280 work in Adelaide, 430 in Salisbury, 430 in Playford, 370 in Port Adelaide Enfield and 90 in Charles Sturt. Even if 10% of that population catches the train, that's 160 people. The Barossa is not a commuting suburb, and it is not expected to grow much due to strict development controls (as it should be).
Spotto wrote:
Thu Apr 23, 2020 2:46 pm
The infrastructure to disperse people within the Barossa is there, but until there's a solid method of getting people into the Barossa to then use Minister Knoll's buses to their full potential it's a half-baked idea. Rail is that critical link. Flash back to when West Lakes was being developed; imagine if they'd built houses and roads on Delfin Island before West Lakes Boulevard actually connected it to the mainland.
You can't compare West Lakes the the Barossa Valley. West Lakes has a much denser population, a major shopping centre and is part of the commuter pool of Adelaide.
You've made a lot of assumptions in here Norman, and I guess this just reflects the common South Australians inward looking take on the world.

Might be best to do some research on the Barossa, you don't even know the history or relevance of Chateau Tanunda, you don't even know about the cricket ground there being used by past international players and you clearly don't understand how to leverage uniqueness to attract international tourism.

So I guess we will just leave the topic there and allow Tourism SA and the people of SA fumble along in their usual fashion.
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Re: News & Discussion: Regional Transport

Post by rubberman »

Bob wrote:
Sun May 03, 2020 9:07 am
Norman wrote:
Thu Apr 23, 2020 4:04 pm
Bob wrote:
Thu Apr 23, 2020 1:19 pm
In this vision there would only be one railway station – Tanunda.

Tanunda could be upgraded into a transport & destination hub. It is the main historic township of the valley; it does have Chateau Tanunda next to the station and the ICC approved cricket oval on the grounds.
To be honest, I've never heard of Chateau Tanunda. I'm not sure interstate and international tourists do either. I'm sure it's a good winery, but I'm also sure the tourists would be more interested in the larger wineries such as Jacobs Creek, Seppelsfield, etc.

Not too sure why tourists would want to visit the Barossa to go to a cricket ground.
Bob wrote:
Thu Apr 23, 2020 1:19 pm
Additionally, mini buses could be used as shuttles from Tanunda station, and people would be able to select what tour experience they want – as an example one day tour might be a six hour session that greets you at the station when the train arrives at 1030 for a brief walk to Chateau Tanunda (Tanunda) for a late morning visit , then bus to Chateau Yalumba (Angaston) for lunch, a wine making experience at Penfolds (Nuriootpa), afternoon visit to Seppeltsfield, then back to Tanunda to catch the train at 1630 for a relaxing express ride to be dropped back in the city. There are numerous options. Having been on many express trains across the world, there are many like me that prefer proper train travel to a worthwhile destination and then use local transport options to sample the delights, it feels like you have arrived somewhere of note.
Tour operators don't work on an ad-hoc basis. They are planned at least a day in advance. If there is only one train per day, that severely limits the time that people can stay in the Barossa before having to rush back to the train station. It also means that tour operators have no flexibility as to when they can start and finish their tour.

Interstate travellers go to the Barossa in three ways... by hire car they picked up at the airport, by car with friends that live in Adelaide or by an organised tour (possibly even a guided tour in their language if they are from overseas).
Spotto wrote:
Thu Apr 23, 2020 2:46 pm
An normal AdMet train from Gawler stopping Lyndoch and Tanunda (preferably Nuriootpa as well but that's another discussion) timetabled to sync with the mainline Gawler train would be the much needed gateway into the Barossa. The train stations then become local hubs where Minister Knoll's on-demand buses take over transporting people to the wineries or wherever they need to go. Wine tour buses could also pick up passengers from the stations. The reverse also benefits Barossa locals who might need to get to Adelaide or the suburbs: drive/bus to their nearest train station then change from the diesel shuttle to the electric mainline at Gawler. Barossa locals win with a regular commuter train, Adelaide residents who fancy a day out in the Barossa can just hop on a train, interstate/overseas tourists win because it's easier and cheaper to get to the Barossa, local business wins because all these new people are now coming into the Barossa.
So on this plan tourists would have to catch 2 trains and an on-demand bus, which could take anwhere between 10 and 45 minutes to turn up to the station or the winery. That is a lot of time spent waiting and connecting between services when they could have it all direct from their hotel to the wineries... no waiting, no connections.

Secondly, there are 12,000 workers that live in the Barossa Valley. 6,500 of those work in the Barossa Valley, 800 in the Light LGA and 500 in Gawler. Only 280 work in Adelaide, 430 in Salisbury, 430 in Playford, 370 in Port Adelaide Enfield and 90 in Charles Sturt. Even if 10% of that population catches the train, that's 160 people. The Barossa is not a commuting suburb, and it is not expected to grow much due to strict development controls (as it should be).
Spotto wrote:
Thu Apr 23, 2020 2:46 pm
The infrastructure to disperse people within the Barossa is there, but until there's a solid method of getting people into the Barossa to then use Minister Knoll's buses to their full potential it's a half-baked idea. Rail is that critical link. Flash back to when West Lakes was being developed; imagine if they'd built houses and roads on Delfin Island before West Lakes Boulevard actually connected it to the mainland.
You can't compare West Lakes the the Barossa Valley. West Lakes has a much denser population, a major shopping centre and is part of the commuter pool of Adelaide.
You've made a lot of assumptions in here Norman, and I guess this just reflects the common South Australians inward looking take on the world.

Might be best to do some research on the Barossa, you don't even know the history or relevance of Chateau Tanunda, you don't even know about the cricket ground there being used by past international players and you clearly don't understand how to leverage uniqueness to attract international tourism.

So I guess we will just leave the topic there and allow Tourism SA and the people of SA fumble along in their usual fashion.
I'm not sure how any of that counteracts the fact that buses can do a far better job of picking up tourists from their hotels, delivering them to and between all those attractions, and then taking them back home. Heavy rail simply cannot do that, even without considering the cost. Further, heavy rail for tourists, plush seats, toilets and even minimal catering is completely different to commuter rail where space is at a premium and standards are spartan.

Further, it's not even clear to me that the existing rail line is the best anyway. Lines laid down in the late 1800s are likely to have alignments that can never sustain the high speeds required for commuter trains. So, why not wait till a commuter train is justified? Then build a track that can sustain the necessary speeds, rather than make do with something that met expectations of the late 1800s?
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Re: News & Discussion: Regional Transport

Post by Joelmark »

I think the mid-term future for the rail corridor could lie somewhere between all the recent posts on here - how about extending Adelaide Metro services one more stop to Concordia from Gawler Central, integrating the new station with a bus interchange that would serve both LinkSA and private operators? You would then have an idea as to whether restoring any future leisure or commuter rail beyond Concordia would be viable. Certainly with the growth of housing on the Gawler fringe, Concordia could be viable for Adelaide Metro services within the next 10 years.
Also, I think once electrified rail services begin from Gawler Central towards the end of 2021, there will be a renewed push to relieve congestion at the Murray Street crossing, which will only worsen due to the increased popularity of the rail service.
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Re: News & Discussion: Regional Transport

Post by PeFe »

Joelmark wrote:
Sun May 03, 2020 9:05 pm
I think the mid-term future for the rail corridor could lie somewhere between all the recent posts on here - how about extending Adelaide Metro services one more stop to Concordia from Gawler Central, integrating the new station with a bus interchange that would serve both LinkSA and private operators? You would then have an idea as to whether restoring any future leisure or commuter rail beyond Concordia would be viable. Certainly with the growth of housing on the Gawler fringe, Concordia could be viable for Adelaide Metro services within the next 10 years.
Also, I think once electrified rail services begin from Gawler Central towards the end of 2021, there will be a renewed push to relieve congestion at the Murray Street crossing, which will only worsen due to the increased popularity of the rail service.
Any bus interchange should be at Gawler Central.....the closest station to the main shops and services in Gawler.
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