News & Discussion: Trams

[Patrick_27]

I preferred In-Daily's coverage on on this, The Advertiser simply threw something together because they had too.

I have a few concerns... The first is that Mulligan in response to the announcement of this promised funding has basically given the impression that this $500m would be all there was towards this project because the state government don't have the intention of matching the funding; the second is how little $500m is when you consider the overall costings for this network are roughly around $3b; the third is that they're re-talking the proposed routes for these lines... Goodwood Road vs. Unley Road, Magill Road vs. The Parade, surely the logical answer would be to put trams where there is density rather than putting trams where they want density. To put a tram line up Goodwood Road to Mitcham is simply stupid, when you already have the Belair line in close proximity.

Whilst I recognise the fact that federal government have committed sweet fuck all to our public transport needs, I'm a little frustrated with how little funding federal Labor are committing here when they've allocated a total of $5b towards public transport projects around Australia. Considering they're trying to pick up votes in Hindmarsh, Boothby and Sturt at this election, they need to give us more. With everything that's been going on in South Australia this last few of years you'd think Adelaide would be marginal enough to warrant more election promises.

[rubberman]

I preferred In-Daily's coverage on on this, The Advertiser simply threw something together because they had too.

I have a few concerns... The first is that Mulligan in response to the announcement of this promised funding has basically given the impression that this $500m would be all there was towards this project because the state government don't have the intention of matching the funding; the second is how little $500m is when you consider the overall costings for this network are roughly around $3b; the third is that they're re-talking the proposed routes for these lines... Goodwood Road vs. Unley Road, Magill Road vs. The Parade, surely the logical answer would be to put trams where there is density rather than putting trams where they want density. To put a tram line up Goodwood Road to Mitcham is simply stupid, when you already have the Belair line in close proximity.

Whilst I recognise the fact that federal government have committed sweet fuck all to our public transport needs, I'm a little frustrated with how little funding federal Labor are committing here when they've allocated a total of $5b towards public transport projects around Australia. Considering they're trying to pick up votes in Hindmarsh, Boothby and Sturt at this election, they need to give us more. With everything that's been going on in South Australia this last few of years you'd think Adelaide would be marginal enough to warrant more election promises.

The uncertainty about the route merely underlines how sketchy the proposal really is, lol.

This is further reinforced by the amount on offer : SA's population is roughly 10% of the total population, so they throw 10% of the $5Bn at us. It's got nothing to do with the merits of the project.

If the Coalition can't smack them over the head with this slipshod approach, they aren't trying.

[zippySA]

And those last two posts highlight the entire problem with our current system - throw me money or I won't vote for you! All parties (state and federal) need a kick up the bum and start doing some evidence based decision making when throwing around these billions of dollars that are effectively borrowed money and hence need to deliver a return in investment.

I'd be much more inclined to back a party that says - show me a detailed proposal that hits the mark (and I'll throw in millions (not billions) if you need to fund that work) - and then I'll sort out where we will find the money to pay for a smart, coherent plan that adds something to the whole city......

Or am I simply too idealistic? I'd like a new house if any politicians are listening - be pretty happy with only $1M or so and I reckon I could bring along about 20-30 first preference votes for you as part of the deal

[rubberman]

I preferred In-Daily's coverage on on this, The Advertiser simply threw something together because they had too.

I have a few concerns... The first is that Mulligan in response to the announcement of this promised funding has basically given the impression that this $500m would be all there was towards this project because the state government don't have the intention of matching the funding; the second is how little $500m is when you consider the overall costings for this network are roughly around $3b; the third is that they're re-talking the proposed routes for these lines... Goodwood Road vs. Unley Road, Magill Road vs. The Parade, surely the logical answer would be to put trams where there is density rather than putting trams where they want density.
(Snip)....

The only way I could see Goodwood Road working would be something like:

1). Tram to Cross Road, and

2). Close Goodwood Road to through traffic from Cross Road to the Glenelg line, and

3). Buy the land around the Cross/Goodwood Road intersection and build a large parking station there as the tram terminus. Possibly re-establish the shopping centre as part of the development.

Doing this would obviate the need for a tram overpass to Goodwood Road...and to doing further roadworks about the choke point at the tram crossing where Goodwood Road is rather narrow. If normal tram stops were used instead of the nutty centre islands, then buses could also use the alignment and run express to Cross Road and southern suburbs using the tram alignment.

4). Develop the Goodwood Road corridor with medium density housing/shopping

I'm not particularly pushing the items above, rather suggesting one way that might make Goodwood Road viable for trams.

[Algernon]

Typical that instead of building a tram down the highest patronage bus route in Adelaide (Prospect Rd), or down one of the most highly used routes (Henley Beach Rd) with an opportunity to welcome air travellers in to Adelaide on a rail service instead of munted buses.... no we direct the energies towards Goodwood Rd, the RAH which is freakin closing, and of course the Parade so we can argue about trees. Bravo Adelaide.

[fishinajar]

I was told the other day that Melbourne's trams only generate one third of their own revenue from ticket sales - the other two thirds comes from the government as part of a performance payment to meet certain KPI's. It's a good point - great to roll these out, but ensure they factor in the ongoing operational costs - these end up being much larger than the up-front build over the life of the asset.

How much of the cost of maintaining our road infrastructure is covered by car registration again?

[Waewick]

Typical that instead of building a tram down the highest patronage bus route in Adelaide (Prospect Rd), or down one of the most highly used routes (Henley Beach Rd) with an opportunity to welcome air travellers in to Adelaide on a rail service instead of munted buses.... no we direct the energies towards Goodwood Rd, the RAH which is freakin closing, and of course the Parade so we can argue about trees. Bravo Adelaide.

the whole point of the extension down North Terrace is becuase the RAH is closing.

[Kasey771]

I was told the other day that Melbourne's trams only generate one third of their own revenue from ticket sales - the other two thirds comes from the government as part of a performance payment to meet certain KPI's. It's a good point - great to roll these out, but ensure they factor in the ongoing operational costs - these end up being much larger than the up-front build over the life of the asset.

How much of the cost of maintaining our road infrastructure is covered by car registration again?

All of it if you listen to the rabid anti-cyclist mouth-breathers commenting on AN.

[Norman]

Typical that instead of building a tram down the highest patronage bus route in Adelaide (Prospect Rd), or down one of the most highly used routes (Henley Beach Rd) with an opportunity to welcome air travellers in to Adelaide on a rail service instead of munted buses.... no we direct the energies towards Goodwood Rd, the RAH which is freakin closing, and of course the Parade so we can argue about trees. Bravo Adelaide.

The only person I have heard speaking about Goodwood Road is Stephen Mulligan, and I don't think lawyers make good transport planners. Let's wait and see what the business case by the experts says.

[thecityguy]

Doubt it will happen, but as far as a few dots on a map, it looks pretty perfect to me. Would do a lot to the areas around the lines. And I think it would encourage a hell of a lot more people going to the city


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[SRW]

If the $500 million is over 4 years that means a sizeable contribution from the state year by year to get much more than a city loop done.

The other thing I wonder is do we have enough trams currently to operate a single extension (say one of North Tce East/Parade, North Adelaide/Prospect, or Henley Beach/Airport)? If not, how many will we need; what will they cost; and how long will we have to wait for them?

[rubberman]

If the $500 million is over 4 years that means a sizeable contribution from the state year by year to get much more than a city loop done.

The other thing I wonder is do we have enough trams currently to operate a single extension (say one of North Tce East/Parade, North Adelaide/Prospect, or Henley Beach/Airport)? If not, how many will we need; what will they cost; and how long will we have to wait for them?

First part is easy. Nope, if we get an extension, we will need more trams. How many will depend on the frequency and patronage. The cost? Well, if we buy them overseas, between $3m for a basic citadis type and $4.5m for a Rolls Royce Skoda. The Citadis types are hard on trackwork, cause corrugations and wear, so the overall cost might be the same. An equivalent Australian built tram is probably $6m. Of course, if we do it via a process like the Gold Coast or Sydney, then we will probably pay $6m for a lesser standard tram. (But that's just me being cynical).

How long we have to wait would depend on the type of tram we wanted. A stock standard uni-direction tram that is overseas standard, might be almost off the shelf. Something with lots of individual tweaks for Adelaide, a couple of years maybe. It also depends on the numbers we order. A manufacturer might give priority if it was 50 vehicles, but 10 might be a 'get to the end of the queue' moment for us. (I think that was why it took so long to get the Citadis, there were only six, so not many manufacturers were willing to drop everything).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%A0koda_15_T

http://www.pragoimex.cz/en/ This tram is rather like the VW of the tram world. It, like the beetle, has evolved over more than fifty years to the design shown on the web page. It is basic and only has disabled access at the middle sections, but it is rugged and dependable.

Edit: If you click on the photos on the Pragoimex site, you will go to a page with a short video for each tram. For those who like tram pron.

[adelaide transport]

Lets hope that if these new tram lines eventually get the go-ahead,we get some longer trams that can handle heavy loadings-ie peak Hours?Football and other major events-which would obviously require longer platforms.

[crawf]

I'm supportive of all tram line proposals, except the north west lines...

I can understand the support and benefits of light rail. Though considering the long distance to Outer Harbor and the larger capacity trains hold, this would be a backward move IMO. The entire corridor is also set for the biggest development growth than all over railway lines, and trams would struggle to cope. Bowden/Brompton alone is going to become a very highly densely populated area in the future, as is Woodville, St Clair, Port Adelaide and the huge potential surrounding Kilkenny Station (same size as Bowden!). Not to mention the cost of the conversion...

Quite simply electrifying, introducing frequent trains and upgrading all stations would help entice motorists off Port and Torrens Roads and attract further investment along the corridor. West Lakes is also set for huge growth, so it could make more sense to re-route the under utilised Grange Line to West Lakes. A light rail could also run from an improved Port Adelaide Interchange to Semaphore Beach (maybe)

I just don't get why more is not being done with trains considering the poor state of the network... why is 'trains' such a dirty word in Adelaide. Trams and buses have their place, but trains are more superior in terms of capacity and speed.

[[Shuz]]

Would be worthwhile bundling up the next order of new trams for Adelaide with the Bombardier E-Class batch being built at Melbourne's Dandendong factory. The money and jobs stay in Australia and we get trams designed for Australian conditions, not European conditions.