News & Discussion: Electricity Infrastructure

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Nort
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Re: News & Discussion: Electricity Infrastructure

#886 Post by Nort » Fri Sep 10, 2021 1:34 pm

See lots of complaints, but as someone who wants to install solar in the next few years it honestly doesn't seem like a terrible idea. Supply and demand is a thing, and if there's an over-supply of power being fed into the grid where is it meant to go?

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Re: News & Discussion: Electricity Infrastructure

#887 Post by Jaymz » Fri Sep 10, 2021 3:45 pm

There seems to be a new large scale solar/wind/battery farm announced every other week in SA. It's hard to keep up. I check this thread regularly out of interest but it's far from my area of expertise.

Could someone post a quick list of all current projects that are under SWP/construction/commissioning in SA? It would be much appreciated 😃

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Re: News & Discussion: Electricity Infrastructure

#888 Post by PeFe » Fri Sep 10, 2021 3:47 pm

if there's an over-supply of power being fed into the grid where is it meant to go?
I see it as a short term issue only. You only have to wait for the NSW-SA Interconnector to be built for another pathway of exporting electricity from South Australia.

And future large batteries with no arrangements with wind or solar farms might be looking for cheap power.

And then there is hydrogen.....

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Re: News & Discussion: Electricity Infrastructure

#889 Post by Goodsy » Sat Sep 11, 2021 12:28 pm

Nort wrote:
Fri Sep 10, 2021 1:34 pm
See lots of complaints, but as someone who wants to install solar in the next few years it honestly doesn't seem like a terrible idea. Supply and demand is a thing, and if there's an over-supply of power being fed into the grid where is it meant to go?
It should be going into a state owned pumped hydro storage system

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Re: News & Discussion: Electricity Infrastructure

#890 Post by PeFe » Sat Sep 11, 2021 4:45 pm

In 2019 ARENA (Australian Renewable Energy Agency) were due to fund a pumped hydro project in South Australia. There were 4 different applicants who applied for start up funding to get their project off their ground.

ARENA never announced any funding, the cost of large scale batteries kept falling and ARENA decided that any pumped hydro project would be uneconomic compared to batteries in the near future. And so it happened.

There will never be any large scale pumped hydro in SA, too expensive and too inflexible compared to batteries.

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Re: News & Discussion: Electricity Infrastructure

#891 Post by Spurdo » Sat Sep 11, 2021 6:17 pm

PeFe wrote:
Sat Sep 11, 2021 4:45 pm
too expensive and too inflexible compared to batteries.
What if I want to use electricity for longer than an hour though?

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Re: News & Discussion: Electricity Infrastructure

#892 Post by PeFe » Sat Sep 11, 2021 6:36 pm

Batteries do not all come in one hour durations or configurations.

Go back in this thread to read about various proposals.

Batteries are described as maximum output plus storage so a 100mw/400mwh means that maximum output that battery can export is 100mw. 400mwh refers to storage capacity. 4 hours at maximum output, 8 hours at 50% output etc etc

The proposed battery at Goyder South by Neoen is particularly large.....

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Re: News & Discussion: Electricity Infrastructure

#893 Post by SBD » Sat Sep 11, 2021 11:56 pm

PeFe wrote:
Sat Sep 11, 2021 4:45 pm
In 2019 ARENA (Australian Renewable Energy Agency) were due to fund a pumped hydro project in South Australia. There were 4 different applicants who applied for start up funding to get their project off their ground.

ARENA never announced any funding, the cost of large scale batteries kept falling and ARENA decided that any pumped hydro project would be uneconomic compared to batteries in the near future. And so it happened.

There will never be any large scale pumped hydro in SA, too expensive and too inflexible compared to batteries.
Have all of the pumped hydro projects been canned? Two seem to still have web sites and future dates for construction starts.
* Baroota Reservoir
*Goat Hill

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Re: News & Discussion: Electricity Infrastructure

#894 Post by PeFe » Sun Sep 12, 2021 3:52 pm

I have heard nothing about the Goat Hill and Baroota pumped hydro projects for years....years.....probably 2019 was the last time I saw them mentioned in news articles dealing with renewable energy in South Australia.

Goat Hill is right next to the Lincoln Gap wind farm. The wind farm has been expanding lately (plus plans for a small battery)
No literature about Lincoln Gap ever mentions the Goat Hill pumped hydro project.

Also I have seen prices in the past putting pumped hydro around $200 per mwh in SA. This compares to around $150 per mwh for batteries.

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Re: News & Discussion: Electricity Infrastructure

#895 Post by Spurdo » Sun Sep 12, 2021 11:16 pm

PeFe wrote:
Sun Sep 12, 2021 3:52 pm
Also I have seen prices in the past putting pumped hydro around $200 per mwh in SA. This compares to around $150 per mwh for batteries.
Wow, $150 MWh so much for “affordable, green power” and where are all those “thousands of green jobs” after the construction finishes anyway? Last I checked the average wind farm employed about 5-10 people (pretty much only in the control room) and solar farms even less. Compare that with a plant like Torrens Island which employs several hundred directly and even more through indirect jobs and I’m starting to feel very sceptical about this “green jobs boom” that the pollies and greenies keep promising us? (though then again the greenies have always been about creating mass unemployment)

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Re: News & Discussion: Electricity Infrastructure

#896 Post by PeFe » Mon Sep 13, 2021 12:34 am

Spurdo wrote:
Sun Sep 12, 2021 11:16 pm
PeFe wrote:
Sun Sep 12, 2021 3:52 pm
Also I have seen prices in the past putting pumped hydro around $200 per mwh in SA. This compares to around $150 per mwh for batteries.
Wow, $150 MWh so much for “affordable, green power” and where are all those “thousands of green jobs” after the construction finishes anyway? Last I checked the average wind farm employed about 5-10 people (pretty much only in the control room) and solar farms even less. Compare that with a plant like Torrens Island which employs several hundred directly and even more through indirect jobs and I’m starting to feel very sceptical about this “green jobs boom” that the pollies and greenies keep promising us? (though then again the greenies have always been about creating mass unemployment)
$150 per mwh is the rumoured to be the price of power from the Barker Inlet gas power station as well. At least batteries are forecast to fall in price by 10% per year, the price of gas is only forecast to go one way in this country and that is up. Gas producers told Morrison they want to charge current world prices for natural gas to Australian consumers, not sell it here at a discount.

The current wholesale price of solar and wind is around $50 per mwh........that is far cheaper than any other competitors. Cheapest and cleanest.

And renewables can offer jobs in multiple small communities in far flung locations, fossil fuel plant are usually huge and in one location only.

The "green" renewable investment in South Australia is somewhere between 20 to 30 billion dollars......thats a pretty hefty chunk of money that otherwise would not have come here.

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Re: News & Discussion: Electricity Infrastructure

#897 Post by Spurdo » Mon Sep 13, 2021 1:06 am

PeFe wrote:
Mon Sep 13, 2021 12:34 am
$150 per mwh is the rumoured to be the price of power from the Barker Inlet gas power station as well. At least batteries are forecast to fall in price by 10% per year, the price of gas is only forecast to go one way in this country and that is up. Gas producers told Morrison they want to charge current world prices for natural gas to Australian consumers, not sell it here at a discount.

The current wholesale price of solar and wind is around $50 per mwh........that is far cheaper than any other competitors. Cheapest and cleanest.

And renewables can offer jobs in multiple small communities in far flung locations, fossil fuel plant are usually huge and in one location only.

The "green" renewable investment in South Australia is somewhere between 20 to 30 billion dollars......thats a pretty hefty chunk of money that otherwise would not have come here.
If solar and wind are so cheap, how come bills keep going sky high? Not to mention how since the renewables boom started, the Power Factor/Frequency (measurement of grid stability) has been getting more and more unstable each year. Also, how many of these “thousands of green jobs” that get talked about so much are actually there after the construction stage? Last I checked, all major wind & solar components come from overseas (especially China). It just seems like a bunch of spin to me. Groups like ETSA and the SEC used to employ hundreds sometimes even thousands in their electricity generation divisions which barely gets a mention, but someone wants to build a wind farm that will employ 5-7 people throughout its lifespan and people call it a jobs bonanza.

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Re: News & Discussion: Electricity Infrastructure

#898 Post by PeFe » Mon Sep 13, 2021 11:53 am

Spurdo wrote:
Mon Sep 13, 2021 1:06 am
If solar and wind are so cheap, how come bills keep going sky high?
Electricity prices in SA are coming down. The retail price is made up from 3 components 1) wholesale price 2)transmission fee for using poles and wires 3) retail margin
Ask your retailer why their prices are so high, or why SAPN fees are reputedly the highest in the country....

https://www.premier.sa.gov.au/news/medi ... ty-savings
the Power Factor/Frequency (measurement of grid stability) has been getting more and more unstable each year.
Never heard of it, never read about in all the literature available on the electricity grid.
Last I checked, all major wind & solar components come from overseas (especially China).
Well so what ?!
Where was your mobile phone made?..........overseas
Where was your tv made?.........overseas
Where was your car made?.........overseas
Where was your laptop made?.........overseas
Where were the cheap clothes and furniture you buy from Kmart made?........overseas

Besides should you wish to buy local.......here for solar panels from Mawson Lakes
https://www.tindosolar.com.au/
and here for a battery from Elizabeth
https://sonnen.com.au/

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Re: News & Discussion: Electricity Infrastructure

#899 Post by claybro » Tue Sep 14, 2021 7:05 pm

All cost and manufacturing aside, as at 5pm SA time.. 5:30 EST .. wind power generation for all states was less than 5%. At the time of day, with the greatest load.. 5% eith SA90% supplied by gas. Vic, NSW and Qld mainly coal. Building more wind turbines will not magically create more generation, regardless of cost when the entire SE of the continent is under the same weather pattern of light winds, and no sun. If we are to keep retiring all coal fired generation, we are going to need a lot more gas… except new gas projects also raise the ire of the usual suspects. At some stage either an honest conversation needs to be had .. or the lights will be going out

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Re: News & Discussion: Electricity Infrastructure

#900 Post by PeFe » Tue Sep 14, 2021 8:23 pm

Wind power should not be written off just yet. It still may be able to provide large amounts of power during "lulls" in early evening....offshore wind.

There is a proposal for a 600mw proposal for a wind farm off Kingscote SE. What sort of output this gives during totally still evenings is still to be determined. Anecdotally I believe it is always "windier" out on the ocean compared to land.

And if there is a lack of wind, here come the large batteries. The Goyder South stage 3 battery is huge....900mw/1800mwh. This battery alone could power early evening power needs for 2 hours.
And there are numerous other batteries coming for example the next battery I expect to be built is the AGL battery on Torrens Island. Initially 250mw for one hour, hopefully expanded to 4 hours.

And there are other battery proposals.....at least 4.
AGL have already indicated that their battery will be replacing gas.

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