#Official Defence Thread

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[Shuz]
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Re: #Official Defence Thread

#316 Post by [Shuz] » Wed Mar 16, 2022 12:55 pm

But the Liberals are not going to stay in government. And where's your evidence to suggest that the defence industry wouldn't improve under Labor? Enough with being an annoying keyboard warrior / armchair expert.
Any views and opinions expressed are of my own, and do not reflect the views or opinions of any organisation of which I have an affiliation with.

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Re: #Official Defence Thread

#317 Post by ghs » Wed Mar 16, 2022 5:30 pm

Labor’s defence spending as a share of GDP dropped to 1.56 per cent in the 2012-13 Budget - the lowest level of funding since 1938.

You say that labor are going to win the election, however labor were also favoured to win in 2019 and how did they end up going?

The decision to change to nuclear submarines is a windfall for SA. The plan to build conventional submarines was going to cost around $90 billion. Now that scotty has decided to go with nuclear submarines, the cost could be as high as $171 billion.

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Re: #Official Defence Thread

#318 Post by SBD » Wed Mar 16, 2022 11:28 pm

Tom Koutsantonis has been tweeting abut SA being "outflanked" by WA, presumably in an effort to blame Steven Marshall. The claim seems to be linked to an Advertiser article I can't access, which in turn is derived from a Rex Patrick opinion piece.

This appears to be about improving facilities at Australia's largest Indian Ocean base to better maintain the equipment based there and attract more allied visits.

As far as I can tell, this seems entirely appropriate. South Australia is unlikely to be the first point of attack, and geography says it's a long way to get from SA to either side of the country. The 737 deep maintenance is being developed at Edinburgh, but even the 737s based there sometimes stage out of other bases closer to whatever action they are involved in. Jets move faster than submarines, it makes sense not to have to bring them to Adelaide every time something minor needs cleaning on the hull to keep it going smoothly and quietly.

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Re: #Official Defence Thread

#319 Post by ghs » Thu Mar 17, 2022 10:54 am

SBD, minor maintenance is already undertaken in WA.

Tom K is just playing politics. There will be no shortage of defence work undertaken in SA over the next twenty years.

I believe that if liberal stay in power then we are on the brink of a golden period in terms of defence in SA.

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Re: #Official Defence Thread

#320 Post by SBD » Thu Mar 17, 2022 1:42 pm

ghs wrote:
Thu Mar 17, 2022 10:54 am
SBD, minor maintenance is already undertaken in WA.

Tom K is just playing politics. There will be no shortage of defence work undertaken in SA over the next twenty years.

I believe that if liberal stay in power then we are on the brink of a golden period in terms of defence in SA.
I agree about the total work and the serious stuff appears to be continuing to be in Adelaide. I haven't noticed if Victoria bleats about having had the naval shipyard there closed.

I think the origin of the "story" is Senator Rex Patrick seeking to keep his name in the headlines as he has left the party that got him elected and his term expires this year.

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Re: #Official Defence Thread

#321 Post by rev » Thu Mar 17, 2022 2:16 pm

There isn't going to be a shortage of defence work in SA regardless of who wins in SA.
It's a FEDERAL GOVERNMENT MATTER/DECISION. All state governments can do is lobby.

There will continue to be ship/submarine work done in SA because the facilities are already established, so it doesn't matter if the government is Labor or Liberal.
BOTH of them will do what ever they can to secure more work at those facilities, because if they fail they can blame another state and/or the federal government, and if they succeed in convincing Canberra, they can claim it as a win on the jobs front.

The submarine issue is a mess. The Collins replacement should have been a nuclear powered option from the start, simply because of the huge distances our navy has to cover.
A diesel electric option was selected because of internal/domestic politics.

It's going to cost more because nuclear powered submarines cost more. That doesn't mean the extra costs involved will come flowing through to SA in the form of jobs or otherwise.
What it means is that our tax dollars will be sent to the USA or UK, to pay for the nuclear propulsion systems and other sensitive systems for the subs.

The downside, if you hadn't noticed yet, is that the change in direction on the submarine project means a delay in work starting. That means hundreds of workers, if not thousands could lose their jobs if they haven't already (and many have), and new workers cant be trained up or upskilled until the project begins.
It hasn't begun.
They haven't even decided on what the new submarines will be. All they've decided is that they now want nuclear powered submarines.

Will they be a brand new design?
Will we buy the American Virginia class submarines?
Will we buy the British Astute class submarines?
Will our submarines be a design based on one of those?

Don't be surprised if we end up leasing an American sub or two, it's already been hinted at, or if we even have some of the subs built by the Americans, maybe even some of the subs currently being built or scheduled to be built could end up coming to us.

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Re: #Official Defence Thread

#322 Post by SBD » Thu Mar 17, 2022 3:30 pm

rev wrote:
Thu Mar 17, 2022 2:16 pm

...

Don't be surprised if we end up leasing an American sub or two, it's already been hinted at, or if we even have some of the subs built by the Americans, maybe even some of the subs currently being built or scheduled to be built could end up coming to us.
The expanded Fleet Base West will be able to handle the American submarines. Politics and diplomacy in several countries at the time would be needed to work out how much money flows in which direction, what flag is on the door, and whether it is an American crew with Australian trainees or an Australian crew with American trainers.

Some of the equipment on board might be different on Australian-owned ones, perhaps from the expanded SAAB facilities at Mawson Lakes, and different weapons.

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Re: #Official Defence Thread

#323 Post by ghs » Thu Mar 17, 2022 3:55 pm

There will continue to be ship/submarine work done in SA because the facilities are already established, so it doesn't matter if the government is Labor or Liberal.
Labor doesn’t like to spend on defence.

In 2012-2013 defence spending dropped to its lowest level since 1938 under labor.

If Scotty wins the election then we’re in for a windfall of epic proportions here in SA, similar to what happened with mining in Perth in the 1990’s and 2000’s.

Climate change makes Adelaide even more attractive as a place to do defence work.

why are the wedgetail aircraft being moved from brisbane to Edinburgh ?

I would assume this is because the commonwealth is concerned about flooding in Brisbane.

You can’t have major defence operations in places like Queensland or northern NSW where there is
the possibility of flooding.

Scotty has said he will increase the ADF by 30%. So this expansion will have to occur in states such as SA, WA and Vic where there is relatively low rainfall. SA is in a very good position with defence, we just need Scotty to win the election.

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Re: #Official Defence Thread

#324 Post by Pistol » Thu Mar 17, 2022 4:37 pm

Wedgetails are being relocated to Edinburgh for a multitude of reasons - all of which have nothing to do with flooding concerns
Sticking feathers up your butt does not make you a chicken

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Re: #Official Defence Thread

#325 Post by rev » Thu Mar 17, 2022 8:12 pm

Theyrr increasing the ADF spending and size for several reasons.

1. Election year.
Theyre going to use China as an excuse.
2. Politics. Its not like the government has anything else to appeal to you, so they're using national security and defence.
The media has been hanging the war drums for a while now, particularly on China, so its an easy sell for the government.

3. They can make all the plans they want to grow the number of active personnel, but that doesn't mean people will enlist. Will you GHS?
Submariners are paid quite well compared to most jobs out there
Yet the navy struggles to put the 6 subs to sea at the same time.

If they want more soldiers they need to drop the woke leftist crap particularly in schools, and maybe in a generation or two, there might be more patriotic people in this country.


You actually think they're moving the Wedgetails here because of floods?
Why aren't they moving the Hornets and F35's here then? Or the majority of all assets for that matter.
You do realize our main bases that have the majority of the ADFs fire power are on the east coast right?

Have you thought that maybe those aircraft are moving down here is because the airborne surveillance aircraft, such as the Poseidons and eventually Triton drones are based here?
The JORN radar network is run from Edinburgh.

You see the theme yet?

Just because they'll be based out of Adelaide, if that's what's happening, doesn't mean they're all going to be here all the time.
The Orion's weren't all here at the same time, neither are the Poseidons.
They get deployed to bases around Australia and overseas all the time.

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Re: #Official Defence Thread

#326 Post by Norman » Thu Mar 17, 2022 9:55 pm

I'm no defence expert, but I think it is normal for the first 1 or 2 units to be built overseas to train the Australian-based laborers, after which production moves to Australia for the rest of the fleet.

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Re: #Official Defence Thread

#327 Post by ghs » Fri Mar 18, 2022 11:42 am

Norman wrote:
Thu Mar 17, 2022 9:55 pm
I'm no defence expert, but I think it is normal for the first 1 or 2 units to be built overseas to train the Australian-based laborers, after which production moves to Australia for the rest of the fleet.
I am not aware of any defence programs where this has occurred, it’s much easier to build an entire fleet in one location.
All 6 Collins class submarines were built here in Adelaide, as were the 3 AWD’s.
With the Air Force, the aircraft are always built overseas.
The wedgetail aircraft were built in Seattle with the systems work being done here in Adelaide by BAE systems.
Last edited by ghs on Fri Mar 18, 2022 12:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: #Official Defence Thread

#328 Post by ghs » Fri Mar 18, 2022 12:20 pm

rev wrote:
Thu Mar 17, 2022 8:12 pm


You actually think they're moving the Wedgetails here because of floods?
Why aren't they moving the Hornets and F35's here then? Or the majority of all assets for that matter.
Brother, if the wedgetails are not being moved due to flooding concerns, then why are they being re-located?

The hornets which were based at Amberley have been retired. And the F35s which replace the hornets are not based at
Amberley. So there’s a clear move away from Amberley, which I believe would be due to flooding concerns there.

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Re: #Official Defence Thread

#329 Post by rev » Fri Mar 18, 2022 3:41 pm

"Brother", they're building a maintenance & modification facility for the Poseidons and Wedgetails, and other high tech surveillance aircraft at Edinburgh. It has nothing to do with the flooding.

No 1 Squadron is based at Amberley. Its made up of Super Hornets. No 6 squadron with the Growler which is based on the Hornet, is also based there.
Amberley is also home to the C17 and C27 transports and the aerial refuelling tanker fleet.

You do know Amberley is the biggest RAAF base right?
There doing upgrades to the base. RAAF wants it to be a "superbase".

Like has been said already, the wedgetails moving here has nothing to do with flooding.

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Re: #Official Defence Thread

#330 Post by Goodsy » Fri Mar 18, 2022 4:17 pm

ghs wrote:
Fri Mar 18, 2022 11:42 am
Norman wrote:
Thu Mar 17, 2022 9:55 pm
I'm no defence expert, but I think it is normal for the first 1 or 2 units to be built overseas to train the Australian-based laborers, after which production moves to Australia for the rest of the fleet.
I am not aware of any defence programs where this has occurred, it’s much easier to build an entire fleet in one location.
The procurement of the F/A-18 Hornets was done exactly like that.. The first 2 were built in the US, the next 2 were built in the US, disassembled and shipped to Australia for assembly and the rest were built by the CAC and GAF in Melbourne

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