[VIS] Passenger Trains to Mount Barker

[rhino]

Honest but ignorant question - why is there a railway line into the container terminal at Outer Harbor? As far as I know, there are no container facilities on the SA rail network outside of the metro area. Container loads of wine from the warehouse at Penfield can't justify a train. Is copper or gold ore/concentrate exported in containers from somewhere near a railway line?

There is rail into the grain terminal too. Is grain still moved by rail from Mallala, Crystal Brook, Tailem Bend and Keith? I think they might be the only remaining grain sites on the standard gauge network.

Containerised hay from Bowmans (Balco) is shipped from Outer Harbor, I believe. Also, containerised freight is railed between Outer Harbor and Regency Park or the freight yard along the Grand Trunkway (I think it's called Port Flat), where it is organised to be railed or trucked elsewhere. There was a time, not so long ago, when containerised woodchips from the south east were also to be shipped from Outer Harbor.

Grain is moved daily to the export silos at Outer Harbor. As well as the towns you mentioned, I believe you can add Snowtown and Gladstone.

[rhino]

Rail to port should be considered critical infrastructure-not some logisitical just in case afterthought.

Absolutely, but as you say, it can be used in an emergency. It is not used on a regular basis to move freight from one port to another.

[TrebleSketch]

Was Penfield going to be on the through route, or only on the Adelaide north stub? Bowmans is the next current freight terminal. Presumably someone would build an intermodal terminal on the through line near the junction, as there would likely still be a spur to Penfield, Dry Creek, Regency Park, Port Adelaide, Osborne and Outer Harbor. It would be interesting to see whether freight was immediately moved to trucks, or to a short-haul rail operation servicing those terminals (and any industrial sidings that might still be used?)

Devil’s advocate for a second, but why move something from a long-haul train to a short-haul train then to a truck when you can cut out the middle man and go straight from long-haul train to truck? Cheaper and easier.

The problem with having long-haul trucks is the inefficiencies/time wasted for how much time it takes + how many people it takes to transport it. If a crew of 2-3 can transport 30-60 trucks worth of goods every 6-8 hours (rough shift length) vs 1 for 1 truck for similar hours but uses way more trucks/etc. It would be far better in the long-run to keep trucks/semis on more local routes instead of having them drive interstate/etc for most of the freight routes. Using rail along trunk lines makes more sense vs trucks.

Get it to a hub quicker and then back out, needs less vehicles on the road or at least better utilise the vehicles they've got. Alongside also reducing road infrastructure maintenance with less long-haul semis. Unless you absolutely can't get rail freight along the corridors, then semis can still be used.
Especially with the tech for long-haul electric trucks/semis being still a decade or more away while diesel freight rail is already way more efficient (with the possibility of hybrid/hydrogen or goodness forbid, actual electric freight trains), there's still much more that can be done to improve emissions in our nation-wide logistics market with existing tech. Not stuff that's decades away.

[SBD]

Was Penfield going to be on the through route, or only on the Adelaide north stub? Bowmans is the next current freight terminal. Presumably someone would build an intermodal terminal on the through line near the junction, as there would likely still be a spur to Penfield, Dry Creek, Regency Park, Port Adelaide, Osborne and Outer Harbor. It would be interesting to see whether freight was immediately moved to trucks, or to a short-haul rail operation servicing those terminals (and any industrial sidings that might still be used?)

Devil’s advocate for a second, but why move something from a long-haul train to a short-haul train then to a truck when you can cut out the middle man and go straight from long-haul train to truck? Cheaper and easier.

The problem with having long-haul trucks is the inefficiencies/time wasted for how much time it takes + how many people it takes to transport it. If a crew of 2-3 can transport 30-60 trucks worth of goods every 6-8 hours (rough shift length) vs 1 for 1 truck for similar hours but uses way more trucks/etc. It would be far better in the long-run to keep trucks/semis on more local routes instead of having them drive interstate/etc for most of the freight routes. Using rail along trunk lines makes more sense vs trucks.

Get it to a hub quicker and then back out, needs less vehicles on the road or at least better utilise the vehicles they've got. Alongside also reducing road infrastructure maintenance with less long-haul semis. Unless you absolutely can't get rail freight along the corridors, then semis can still be used.
Especially with the tech for long-haul electric trucks/semis being still a decade or more away while diesel freight rail is already way more efficient (with the possibility of hybrid/hydrogen or goodness forbid, actual electric freight trains), there's still much more that can be done to improve emissions in our nation-wide logistics market with existing tech. Not stuff that's decades away.

Grain used to be moved from the terminal at Loxton by a very slow train through Tailem Bend and the Adelaide Hills to Outer Harbor. I'm not sure whether one was a cause or catalyst of the other, but now the railway is closed and road trains are allowed to carry the grain through Moorook and Truro (on roads which previously did not permit road trains).

Somewhere in the last hundred years, we have gone from building new regional railways to removing almost all of them. I'm not sure how much of this is changes in available technology and how much is changes (deliberate or otherwise) in government policies. Victoria is upgrading and reopening some of its rural railways, but I'm not sure if they are for commodity block trains (like grain or ore) or if they also carry general/mixed freight such as supplying supermarkets and furniture shops. Rail freight operators are expected to cover the full cost of maintaining the track and other infrastructure, but road freight operators do not have to bear the full cost of the road network.

[rhino]

Rail freight operators are expected to cover the full cost of maintaining the track and other infrastructure, but road freight operators do not have to bear the full cost of the road network.

They actually do pay a lot indirectly. For example the amount of fuel they use means the amount of tax they pay is substantial, as is registering a commercial vehicle, etc. But I would still advocate for more use of rail.

[rhino]

Somewhere in the last hundred years, we have gone from building new regional railways to removing almost all of them. I'm not sure how much of this is changes in available technology and how much is changes (deliberate or otherwise) in government policies. Victoria is upgrading and reopening some of its rural railways, but I'm not sure if they are for commodity block trains (like grain or ore) or if they also carry general/mixed freight such as supplying supermarkets and furniture shops.

When the railways were built, the roads were shite and road transport was by horse and cart, or by bullock teams for bulky commodities like grain, wool or ore. King William Street in Adelaide was built wide enough to turn a full span of oxen. Over the years roads and road transport became more efficient, and rail became less competitive (think logging railroads vs log trucks, for example). Then in the post war years private motor vehicles became commonplace and roads started to clog up, so multi-lane highways and freeways appeared. Now even they are clogging up and commodities will slowly start to move back to rail. With regard to supplying supermarkets and furniture stores, economies of scale will dictate which mode of transport is used.

[SBD]

Rail freight operators are expected to cover the full cost of maintaining the track and other infrastructure, but road freight operators do not have to bear the full cost of the road network.

They actually do pay a lot indirectly. For example the amount of fuel they use means the amount of tax they pay is substantial, as is registering a commercial vehicle, etc. But I would still advocate for more use of rail.

I still doubt that the tax on fuel for freight on any particular stretch of road would fully cover the cost of maintaining it as has been expected of rail operators. Intrastate railways have not been subsidised by the government for at least four decades.

[SBD]

Somewhere in the last hundred years, we have gone from building new regional railways to removing almost all of them. I'm not sure how much of this is changes in available technology and how much is changes (deliberate or otherwise) in government policies. Victoria is upgrading and reopening some of its rural railways, but I'm not sure if they are for commodity block trains (like grain or ore) or if they also carry general/mixed freight such as supplying supermarkets and furniture shops.

When the railways were built, the roads were shite and road transport was by horse and cart, or by bullock teams for bulky commodities like grain, wool or ore. King William Street in Adelaide was built wide enough to turn a full span of oxen. Over the years roads and road transport became more efficient, and rail became less competitive (think logging railroads vs log trucks, for example). Then in the post war years private motor vehicles became commonplace and roads started to clog up, so multi-lane highways and freeways appeared. Now even they are clogging up and commodities will slowly start to move back to rail. With regard to supplying supermarkets and furniture stores, economies of scale will dictate which mode of transport is used.

The last expansion of rural rail in SA was in the 1920s. There would have been army surplus trucks around I expect, and the new farmers would have had experience operating them.

It will be interesting to see if any rural railways get a serious proposal to reopen them. Eyre Peninsula narrow gauge seems possible. Many of the others have been repurposed or lost I think. Rattler, RIesling and Amy Gillett trails for example.

[rhino]

It will be interesting to see if any rural railways get a serious proposal to reopen them. Eyre Peninsula narrow gauge seems possible. Many of the others have been repurposed or lost I think. Rattler, RIesling and Amy Gillett trails for example.

Now that Aurizon have taken over OneRail, hopefully things will look up for rail. Aurizon is Australia's biggest rail operator, originating from Queensland Rail, and rail is used in Queensland for shipping all sorts of commodities.

[Nort]

Most of the freight destined for or coming from Outer Harbor or Port Adelaide would not have a truck as the next step, it would have a ship. If there are still any industrial sidings, they would also be served by forklift not semi-trailer.

I think it's rather unlikely that freight arriving from Melbourne, Sydney, Darwin or Perth would be heading for Port Adelaide or Outer Harbor to be transferred to a ship. They are all bigger ports than Adelaide.
Similarly, it's unlikely that cargo arriving in Adelaide by ship would be railed to these other ports, with the possible exception of Darwin.
Most end-users of freight services are not located next to our ever-shrinking number of rail lines - trucking is required for the first and/or last leg, and will be for the foreseeable future.

Honest but ignorant question - why is there a railway line into the container terminal at Outer Harbor? As far as I know, there are no container facilities on the SA rail network outside of the metro area. Container loads of wine from the warehouse at Penfield can't justify a train. Is copper or gold ore/concentrate exported in containers from somewhere near a railway line?

There is rail into the grain terminal too. Is grain still moved by rail from Mallala, Crystal Brook, Tailem Bend and Keith? I think they might be the only remaining grain sites on the standard gauge network.

Penrice definitely used the line for bringing materials into the plant, think that until their closure a decade ago they might have also exported products on the line.

[rhino]

I think it's rather unlikely that freight arriving from Melbourne, Sydney, Darwin or Perth would be heading for Port Adelaide or Outer Harbor to be transferred to a ship. They are all bigger ports than Adelaide.
Similarly, it's unlikely that cargo arriving in Adelaide by ship would be railed to these other ports, with the possible exception of Darwin.
Most end-users of freight services are not located next to our ever-shrinking number of rail lines - trucking is required for the first and/or last leg, and will be for the foreseeable future.

Honest but ignorant question - why is there a railway line into the container terminal at Outer Harbor? As far as I know, there are no container facilities on the SA rail network outside of the metro area. Container loads of wine from the warehouse at Penfield can't justify a train. Is copper or gold ore/concentrate exported in containers from somewhere near a railway line?

There is rail into the grain terminal too. Is grain still moved by rail from Mallala, Crystal Brook, Tailem Bend and Keith? I think they might be the only remaining grain sites on the standard gauge network.

Penrice definitely used the line for bringing materials into the plant, think that until their closure a decade ago they might have also exported products on the line.

They had a daily stone train ("The Stonie" to gunzels) from the quarry at Penrice to Osborne, where they used the limestone to create soda ash for use in the Readymix concrete plant next door, or something.

[SBD]

Honest but ignorant question - why is there a railway line into the container terminal at Outer Harbor? As far as I know, there are no container facilities on the SA rail network outside of the metro area. Container loads of wine from the warehouse at Penfield can't justify a train. Is copper or gold ore/concentrate exported in containers from somewhere near a railway line?

There is rail into the grain terminal too. Is grain still moved by rail from Mallala, Crystal Brook, Tailem Bend and Keith? I think they might be the only remaining grain sites on the standard gauge network.

Penrice definitely used the line for bringing materials into the plant, think that until their closure a decade ago they might have also exported products on the line.

They had a daily stone train ("The Stonie" to gunzels) from the quarry at Penrice to Osborne, where they used the limestone to create soda ash for use in the Readymix concrete plant next door, or something.

The Stone Train was broad gauge and definitely didn't go to the export terminals.

Since I posted the question, I've also discovered hay from Bowmans can be exported in containers. It still feels like a missed opportunity that more "stuff" is not shifted in and around the state in containers on trains. I guess we are short on critical mass. I know that Coles Port Augusta and Whyalla get a semitrailer delivery every day (the road train drops a trailer at Port Augusta and picks it up on the way back) but that isn't enough to justify a train without a lot more stuff, even though the destination is right by the railway.

[rhino]

Penrice definitely used the line for bringing materials into the plant, think that until their closure a decade ago they might have also exported products on the line.

They had a daily stone train ("The Stonie" to gunzels) from the quarry at Penrice to Osborne, where they used the limestone to create soda ash for use in the Readymix concrete plant next door, or something.

The Stone Train was broad gauge and definitely didn't go to the export terminals.

Since I posted the question, I've also discovered hay from Bowmans can be exported in containers. It still feels like a missed opportunity that more "stuff" is not shifted in and around the state in containers on trains. I guess we are short on critical mass. I know that Coles Port Augusta and Whyalla get a semitrailer delivery every day (the road train drops a trailer at Port Augusta and picks it up on the way back) but that isn't enough to justify a train without a lot more stuff, even though the destination is right by the railway.

As I pointed out in my post, the stone train went to the facility at Osborne, so not all the way to the export terminals.
I also pointed out that containerised hay from Balco (at Bowmans) was railed to port, in answer to your question on March 15.
For many years Woolworths had their distribution centre for SA, NT and I believe WA at Monarto, right alongside the ARTC tracks, but to my knowledge they never put a spur in and goods were railed to Adelaide, then trucked to the distribution centre, and trucked back out again.

[SRW]

Relevant to the above discussion, increases to the freight road user charge in the federal budget may help (at least marginally) incentivise a return to rail.

[claybro]

The real cost of road fright is nowhere near covered by the users, and it has been a false economy sifting everything to road freight. Costs in road deterioration, extra congestion, pollution including emissions and roadside residue , noise, road fatalaties..the list goes on. If they are really committed to reducing emissions, and not just palming off cost, all fright lines would be electrified, and long distance freight transported by train, with the last mile stuff being handled by smaller regional trucks. The amount of "road trains" creeping further and further into urban areas is dangerous and a blight on amenity. The relatively small impost on freight operations for road use will in no way encourage the general move to rail- but before the big stick of dis-incentive there also needs to be a massive increase in rail spending-which is ironic, because SA nearly went bankrupt, under Web building one of the best rail rail systems in the world from the 1920's. What a waste of perfectly good infrastructure, and very surprising a Labor state government sold it all off to the Feds, who effectively palmed it off to private entities... who have in turn abandoned most of it.